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Building a college music history program




**Morgan:** How does a college music department define music when it comes to their curriculum? How do they decide what they want students to know, leaving their program? And is the answer to that question, different from what students should know when leaving their program. Welcome to zeitgeist radio, where we learn about musical subcultures from people in the scene. I'm Morgan Roe.


And this week I'm speaking with a college music professor who has been tasked with building the music history program at his school.


When you think about it, that's a hell of a responsibility.




**Morgan:** My guest today is Dr. Chris Gable, a composer, author, and professor at the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Chris, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.


**Chris:** Thank you. Nice to be here.


**Morgan:** You were one of my first ever music Professors.


**Chris:** Oh wow. Okay.


**Morgan:** Yeah. way back when you set the stage for a long journey for me,


Yes. , I would love for you to share, for our audience, how would you describe yourself musically?


**Chris:** Well, I'm a composer. But I actually started my first my first inklings of like composition, I guess, worse I would call them cheesy love songs for girlfriends and things.


And it was a, it was a good Way to weigh in to, to the idea of, you know, putting notes, not necessarily on a page at that point, but, but coming up with a chord progression, you know, that was my own and words that were my own. And I even kind of, I borrowed a friend's. Four track recorder. It was like a little cassette four track recorder.


And I, and I, you know, made a, a very low quality recording of one of the songs one summer, and I was pretty proud of that. And I, I think that I, think of myself as a composer because that's, that's how I sort of, that's how I engage with music. So I, I write music, yes, but I also, I listen to it in a different way than maybe, you know, like a clarinet player or, or some, or a singer or you know, a rock drummer, you know, because the rock drummer, they'll listen to, you know, the drumming patterns and that's what they are focusing on in, in, in some ways, and I focus on things like chord progressions that I like you know, kind of weird time signatures Things that interest me, but are not too complex that they sort of lose the audience.


You know, I, there's some music out there that is, it's, it's so dense that it's hard to let people in. In both, I think in both, you know, prog rock and also, you know, contemporary classical music, there's, there are both, that, that, and also modern jazz, you know, there's, there, there are some genres that they have this kind of avant garde complex side to them, which is really fun to play, I bet, but It's hard for a listener to get into.


So I'm kind of a composer that doesn't go there. I'm not an avant garde composer at all. I try to write accessible music that is, you know, tuneful and hopefully, you know, well crafted. Occasionally I get into, you know, a little bit more experimental things. One of my teachers Stephen Paulus, He, he said you should always try something new in every piece that you do try, even if it's just a little thing, just try a new technique or try a new form or, you know, an instrument that you've never written for something like that.


He, I think that's really good advice. You just don't sort of do the same thing and don't recycle yourself cause that can, that can lead to. or, or boredom in your audience. Yeah. So I, I think you know, that's one of the, one of the challenges of being a contemporary composer is how to reach an audience, how to engage with an audience and who is that audience?


You know, that's a really primary question. I know a lot of. Band composers, composers who write for wind ensemble, and they're really, they're very successful. Meaning they make a lot of money. They, they are writing for a particular purpose. Yeah. And that is to generate new wind ensemble music for high school bands.


For middle school bands. And that's definitely, that's a laudable thing. But it's, it never, they're very, they're very safe compositions. A lot of them, they, they sound, they are very accessible. They also sound very similar to each other. And so that's, that's kind of what I'm talking about. It's sort of like, it feels like recycled music in a way.


There's some great, there's some great stuff out there. I'm not saying that everything is, is recycled, but it's a, it's a danger, I think, that a composer can fall into. And I, I hope that I don't do that, but


**Morgan:** well, I can, I'm more of a choral singer. I've continued in choir after college, pretty much nonstop.


And I still sing in several ensembles and in the choral world, you kind of have the same thing where even, even. Composers who are well known as being creative the people that come to mind are Morton Lauritsen and Eric Whittaker. You know, they both are more known on the cultural level, I think, than most other, the many other choral composers, but there are certain methods that they use over and over and over and over.


Like, you're like, oh, that's the Whittaker chord. That's the Lauritsen chord. So even, even with the challenge of, of being, even though they are kind of more on that creative side and they are often doing new things in their pieces, they also have found something that works and, and recycle that thing.


And


**Chris:** they use that because


**Morgan:** it works. I don't blame them at all, but yeah, that sounds like a tricky line to balance. So who do you write for? What types of ensembles do you write for most now?


**Chris:** So a lot of my recent stuff has been for specific people that I, you know, that commissions from faculty, colleagues at UND or people that I know in, you know, kind of regionally.


So it's mostly, it's been instrumental music lately. So I did a set of pieces for left hand piano recently, and I did a set of cello and piano pieces A couple of years ago, a trombone octet for the UND trombone octet and various things like that. So I, I guess I'm pretty lucky because people keep asking me to write music and they, they usually pay me some.


**Morgan:** That's such a win.


**Chris:** Not a huge amount, but yeah. But it's, you know, it, it's kind of like, it looks good on a CV and, you know, commissioned by the North Dakota museum of art or whatever, you know. So I'm in a position, my, my academic job, it, it is, it does not include creative activity or research. So that's not officially part of my job.


So it's sort of like a. It's like a thing that I do. I still like, I still love to, to write music and I'm always doing, doing some sort of project. But it's not like I'm a, I'm a kind of an ivory tower composer, you know, like a tenured composer who just writes for, you know, for themselves or something.


I don't know. That's a stereotype, but I'm, I'm more, I, I feel like, I'm more of a I'm more of a Benjamin Britton than a Milton Babbitt, I guess, because Britton was very much engaged with his community and he wrote for people. He wrote for children's choirs and amateurs and also, you know, Julian Bream and, and, you know Rostropovich.


And so, because he, he had those connections, but That's, that's kind of the composer that I like to be. I want to be a more public kind of person. And yeah, and it's, it's also satisfying. It's a, it's a great feeling to have a piece performed and, you know,


**Morgan:** When


**Chris:** people actually remember to have you stand up, which doesn't always happen, by the way.


Yeah. Not always. One time, can I tell you a fun story? Sure. One time I had a piece, a premiere of a piece. That was down in and I wrote it, well, I didn't write it for this high school, but the Fargo North high school, they happened to perform at first and the lights were really bright on the stage.


And so the conductor after the piece, he, he turned around, he had no idea where I was sitting. He turned around and he was like, looking like this, like this hand over his eyes and looking and right at the end of the piece. a guy on the far end of the hall, he stood up to go to the bathroom.


**Morgan:** The


**Chris:** conductor pointed at him and he was like clapping for the guy who was walking away.


**Morgan:** Oh no.


**Chris:** And I, I, I stood up eventually and I just tried to wave and, but I don't think the conductor ever saw me. Oh no. That was very funny.


**Morgan:** This great piece written by some random guy. The guy who was


**Chris:** leaving the auditorium. Oh, that must


**Morgan:** have been awkward for him too. He's like, I just gotta go.


**Chris:** Yeah,


**Morgan:** sorry.


**Chris:** And it wasn't even that long of a piece, you know, it's not like it was a huge 30 minute thing where you couldn't leave.


So anyway another side of me is I do write songs and I, I, I'm teaching an introduction to songwriting class every spring, and so I, I try to. I try to keep that side of my writing life active. And so you know, I, I, I, sometimes I just, I write songs to show them, you know, just as examples. But it's also kind of fun and I've, I've written songs every once in a while over the years, you know, like once again, cheesy love


**Morgan:** songs


**Chris:** or, or other, other songs, usually like guitar, guitar and voice kinds of songs.


**Morgan:** Do you have a definition or a line in your head, like a difference between being a composer and a songwriter? Are they different things to you?


**Chris:** That's a really good question and I think that they are different. The reason That I say that is that I had to kind of make a distinction in teaching up at the international music camp because I teach there in the summers and it's for high school kids.


And it used to be called. music composition. That was the name of the week. And I suggested, I think we should really change this to music composition and songwriting, because I don't care whether the kids can read music or not. If they are really great songwriters without, the kind of the notation background, that's totally fine.


And that's, I think the, the, the difference, I think that if it's a notated style, then it's composition. If it's not, it's, it's songwriting. That's a really general statement, but it usually works. And I think that most people who consider them songwriters, they're not, they, they're not thinking, even if they can read music.


They're not really thinking about notation when they're writing a song. I know I don't, I think about a chord pattern and like, let's, let's find a melody that can work here, but I don't really notate it, you know? So I, I, I do think that they're different. I think that there are some songwriters who absolutely they're veering on the composer side.


Like a good example is Bjork. You know, her stuff is really complex and probably. A lot of it is notated. I know it is. And I think St. Vincent also. She, she has musical training. So there, there are, there are folks who, who do that. And kind of they, they blur that line between composition and songwriting, but yeah, I guess I'm going to go out on a limb and say, yeah, yeah, they are different.


Yeah.


**Morgan:** He's making faces.


**Chris:** I'm not totally comfortable with that difference, but, but they are. They are different in terms of how the music is produced, I would say.


**Morgan:** One thing I always really loved about taking music theory from you was you would kind of genre smash and you would use pop or, you know, other like contemporary artists to illustrate, you know, very historically based chord progressions or, you know, whatever concept it was at the time kind of, and it was really cool because it made it feel relevant, you know, like you'd bring in stories of Bjork or Rush, you know, Rush was a frequent, we just, we have a collective memory of Chris Gable and Rush.


But there was a purpose to it. You know, you'd get excited about like, Hey, this is how it was with Mozart. And then, Hey, look, it's still happening now.


**Chris:** Exactly.


**Morgan:** So I'm always curious your thoughts on that. Yeah.


**Chris:** Yeah. And you know, and it's, it's like, you know, a good song includes good counterpoint. You know, there's, there is like physical and identifiable reasons why this is a quality piece of music in terms of, I should say, in terms of like, you know, which a lot of Controversial statement, but the music itself, right?


That phrase, like it's only about the notes, but that's not really what I mean. But, but I think that there, that the way that I listen to music, I like to, I like to hear a. a meaning behind the notes as well as, as well as the lyrics. And so it's not just about the lyrics, but it's also about how is the music expressing the lyrics and do they go together?


Do they conflict with each other? Sometimes they do. And that's really interesting too, but, but most of the time they're, you know, it's a happy text. It's a happy sound. Yeah. You know it's a sad text is usually a happy sorry, usually a sad text. Sound, but not always . Yeah. So there, you know, the great example of that is the Smiths, you know, Morrissey songs.


He, he's like incredibly dark lyrics and he, he sets them to these bouncy beats and it's actually really funny, and ironic, but that's, that's his, that's his style. And so I guess I'm saying that, you know, there are, there are some popular songs that I like more than others. And part of that is because of, you know, the notes themselves, like the, the counterpoint, the, the chord progression, the melody, the rhythmic interest You know, and that's, that's of course it's, it's subjective and it's personal opinion, but again, I'm going back to the point of like, this is how I listen to music because I'm a composer and I, I hear things maybe differently than others.


So.


**Morgan:** Well, let's kind of follow that line of thought because one of the things that we were Talking about discussing on this episode. You, we could talk for probably, I mean, you could come back for a dozen episodes, easy, I'm sure, but one of them was like, even getting into the definition of music, like what is music?


So I'm really curious to see where your head is at on this.


**Chris:** Yeah. So this is a thing that's been bugging me for a while and, and it started with. When I started teaching the rock history class, okay, so it's called the history of rock and roll. And because that is a a phrase, it's a, it's a title of a class, which is used, you know, in several institutions, I'm sure all over the world, really, because people know what that or, or sometimes it's called rock history.


Yeah. But in my first couple classes, I explained that it's not just rock. You know, you think of rock as Van Halen, ACDC, kind of hair bands, you know, Led Zeppelin. You know, there's this very small definition of rock, but this class is going to be a really large definition of rock. And it really means popular music.


However, it doesn't mean I try to limit it to not Broadway. That's also popular music and, and, you know, not, not like, I don't know, easy listening. And there's certain types of popular music that we don't really cover because of time, but also it just, it doesn't really feel like it's. It doesn't really belong with this most people's definition of rock.


However, things like rap and hip hop, it does. There's so much crossover, especially now with rap and rock that you can't ignore it. And so that was where, that was where I started. Like I, I thought, okay, well, this is a rock history class. Great. Then I started thinking about. The fact that at our institution, you can get a music education major.


You can finish music education major and never take a class on popular music.


**Morgan:** Ah, yes.


**Chris:** And, and I have some problems with that. And Ian


**Morgan:** and I have talked about this so much since college, actually.


**Chris:** Yeah, and so you, you know, you look at the side of the building and it says music, right? And it says music department, but it like my question is, is it really a music department?


I mean, or is it a band and choir? department. I'm, I'm talking about my institution. I think Macalester does a wonderful job of like world music. We do very little world music. We have like one semester Of a class called music and culture. And it's taught by somebody who's not even a trained ethnomusicologist.


And I have a feeling there's a lot of schools out there that they're in the same boat. And so, you know, we have this thing. This, this, this field's called music, but it's a very incomplete definition of music. Like what is music really? And, and the traditional music department, like if you look at like Cambridge university or something I don't know, I'm picking on them.


I don't know why, but you know, a very traditional music department. They focus on notated Western European. Music. And actually, and, and even, even We can even go further. They don't even talk about band music because it's it's that the it's vocal and choral and orchestral music and chamber music, of course, but orchestral music, chamber music using, you know, the orchestral instruments.


And. That's another part of this sort of discrimination and, you know, band directors, they complain about that all the time too because it's like, oh, you're teaching history of music. How much do you talk about band music? How much do you talk about Jimi Hendrix? How much do you talk about Chuck Berry?


And so. I look at it as, like, what, what do we want our students to end up with when they're finished? And, you know, I think that there's, there are, there are discussions about this you know, all over the country, and, and sometimes people are trying to change the curriculum to, to reflect exactly that, so, so that it is more It's more sort of egalitarian.


And of course it means you're going to have to get rid of some of the Western European art music. And I'm in a, I'm in a unique position now because I was Granted, the I was given the, the music history sequence at our school now, so, so because the previous guy retired and he was, he was a wonderful man, very much of the old school, and he was the big old doorstop, grout book, and didn't really know much about it.


So. Thank you. Popular music really, and was a medieval and Renaissance specialist. So they got a lot of that information, but is that really that important?


**Morgan:** I know some people who would say yes, but


**Chris:** yeah,


**Morgan:** but yeah, I'll just share this personal story. I've shared this a lot. Which is the summer after I graduated, you know, I moved straight from Macalester home, back home to Montana before moving to Portland.


And my brother plays guitar. He was, he does a lot of bluegrass. He just, he jams a lot with his friends and I had just gotten this shiny fresh music degree and they were like, come jam. And I was petrified. I couldn't, I could not jam. And I've spent the last, like, however many years since graduation, trying to learn how to be comfortable in an ensemble, like just like a bunch of people with guitars, there's a keyboard in the corner, or maybe I pick up a little bit of guitar and just.


Playing the chords with nothing written. It was so hard for me and it was embarrassing. Cause I just have this brand new degree. It's right here and I couldn't do the most, what in many ways is the most basic musical interaction, which is just playing music. Together. Right. Yeah.


**Chris:** Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.


And that's another thing that we don't really stress is improvisation, unless you're in a jazz ensemble and then it's


**Morgan:** jazz improv, which is.


**Chris:** Which is a different thing.


**Morgan:** Yeah.


**Chris:** Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of a, it's a, it's a very strange field in that respect. It's sort of like, Oh yes, we're the chemistry department, but we only teach this kind of chemistry, right?


For other kinds of chemistry, you have to go to a different school. You know, that doesn't make any sense when you talk about a chemistry department, but in music, it's really, really, Traditionally, it's very focused and very narrow.


**Morgan:** So how does your approach to music history take this in? Like, what did you tweak?


**Chris:** Well, I had, I, I, I guess that's still, the jury is still out on that. This is only, this is my fourth year teaching this sequence. I just started, you know, music history one. And what I, what I, one idea that I had, which I think is working is the first half of the semester. I'm just blowing through everything.


I'm going. as fast as I can. Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical. Boom. Then we're gonna, second half, we're gonna go back and go into depth and talk about individual composers and pieces and, and way more kind of detailed discussions of things and, and probably more score analysis and things.


We haven't really done any. So. score analysis really to speak of now. And I think that that usually works because, or that format works for me because otherwise I, I tend to get kind of bogged down like my predecessor did and all these cool pieces and I have to talk about, you know, Bingshua and, you know, Dufai and all of these things.


It's really cool pieces that they wrote and see how it works together. And so, and, and then I end up and it's already December and I'm, you know, Oh, and here's Bach, you know, like, like really quickly I have to shove in JS Bach because otherwise we have to, you know, and so that just. I got behind and then I felt really bad because I, the first year I think I taught it, I only spent like two weeks, if at all, on the 20th century.


And that drove me crazy. And so that's why I'm doing this kind of half and half model, like a big quick survey and then, and then in detail. I also, I, I eventually, I do want to somehow include popular music in, in the second semester. I'm not quite sure how that's going to work yet. I do also, I want to touch on Broadway and jazz because those are also two important genres that get kind of discounted in in academia, but it's challenging.


There's a lot of content, right? And, and right now I don't think there's any way for us to add another semester, for example, of music history. They're, they're already, they're cutting things, you know, like our music education degree. We had to cut, we had to cut out three credits or three or four credits from our, from the music side of their curriculum because they had to teach more in the education side and we didn't have a choice.


**Morgan:** Right.


**Chris:** So, yeah, that's those are the kinds of things that.


We deal with now because, you know, I guess I'm, I'm sort of a older member of the department now. So I am thinking about curriculum and like, well, what are we gonna, how can we fix this? And, and, and luckily the people, people in my department are very open to, to change and they know it's a problem.


/


**Morgan:**


So I have some thoughts about this topic. , one thing, some of my music department, friends and I have talked about, including Ian, who has mentioned a few times here. He also wrote the music for that Geist radio and was a guest way back in episode four. Anyway, we've talked over the years about our theory for classes.


So we're talking pretty advanced senior year classes. By this point , we were in the 20th century and a strong Canon hadn't had time to really be established yet. Many of the folks we studied were still alive history. Doesn't know who's influential yet. We learned about some weird projects in radical, Tonality. And really out there, electronic stuff. Let's just say listening exercises were not very pleasant for me.


Maybe there's others out there that loved it, but I was not one of them. But you know, who else has really incredible, intricate, innovative music theory. Stephen Sondheim creator of west side story Sweeney Todd into the woods and tons of other Broadway musicals. When you analyze his music, he's a genius.


He's scary, but he's a genius. But apparently because it was Broadway, maybe my school thought it was more important for me to learn about some seriously niche, eclectic stuff. I would, 1000% never listened to, again. Then people like sawn time. And we won't even talk about some of the super talented, popular composers or influential musicians out there.


Chris has mentioned Chuck Berry, and I think he's an excellent example. Sometimes these pop composers used the exact concepts we were talking about in class. But I guess because they were in the pop or rock music realm, they weren't even touched on. Of all the wonderful classes I took into my college days, I think theory for and 20th century music history were the ones I questioned most after school. Like sure.


I had a few takeaways, but it also kind of makes me mad because I also see what it could have been. Like Chris said, the word music is on the side of the building, but there sure is a lot being ignored that I honestly think is pretty important. And Hey, if you're still listening and you think it's important to learn about all the wonderful ways that music shows up in this world, you'll definitely want to sign up for my newsletter. You can do that@zeitgeistacademy.com slash radio. In a way, I guess I'm still looking to fill those holes in my education while also realizing that the content I did learn about in school can be explored way deeper than we had time for in class. Okay. Enough of a rent from me, let's head back to the interview.


/


**Morgan:** I imagine as a professor, like you know, people who have entire careers in. Renaissance, right? Or entire careers in jazz, so how in the world can you get all of this information to students knowing that they're going to do five million different things with it when they leave?


**Chris:** Yeah. And I, I do. I, I, I come at it from the kind of the outcome based thing. So what, what do I want them to know at the end of the year? That's really the, the main question. And, and, and, you know, there's the, the, the word that Mark Mazzullo especially hates.


What should they know? He doesn't like the word should. But it's a valid question, you know, and, and I, most of our majors are music ed majors, so they're going to be in front of kids. They're going to be in front of a high school band. Do they really need to know about Anton Webern, maybe not, but


**Morgan:** that'd be a weird early music program, early childhood


**Chris:** music.


But so, but here's the thing they do need to know that the 12 tone system is a thing. And they need to know like basically how it works that that kind of thing is, is, is what I'm getting at. What are the broad strokes? Like what, what are the, like, you know, even like something as simple as when did Mozart live?


Some of these kids, they walk into my classroom. They have no idea as juniors in, in in college and music majors. They don't know that there's a lot of basic stuff that I think is basic that they don't know. And that's, that's the kind of thing that I try to get at. Like they're. Basic knowledge that, I don't know if it's assumed, but it's, it's pretty important.


Like, if you're going to go into the. music education field, there are certain things you should know and should be able to do. And so that's where I'm coming from, from, from music history. I don't actually teach right now. I'm not teaching a whole lot of theory because partially because I'm doing history.


So that's really forced me to think about this. In a, in a curricular way, you know,


**Morgan:** I mean, can we take a step back for a minute and realize such power you have, because you're basically deciding Canon.


**Chris:** Yes,


**Morgan:** you are building the Canon.


**Chris:** I know for these kids, they will not


**Morgan:** know any different to them. This is Canon.


**Chris:** Yeah. And, and I started writing an article, I don't know, I, I'm probably going to try to work on it some more, but it's basically the idea of a, a rock history canon. Like is there one, first of all, and who decides and it's interesting to kind of think about What makes a song canonical and, and it's, it's, it's, I think it's fascinating because, and you're probably very aware of this too, but because your anthropology background, but the, the fact that seven nation army is one of the most common.


Tunes that you hear in in soccer, soccer games, even probably even American football too, but, but it's, it's like people start singing it when they score, you know, and that's a relatively recent song. And it's like, how did that happen? That's, that's fascinating to me. So I'd say


**Morgan:** there's a zeitgeist in here somewhere.


**Chris:** Exactly.


**Morgan:** Sometimes things are created or born that just hit.


**Chris:** The way the way


**Morgan:** the culture is ready to receive.


**Chris:** Yeah.


**Morgan:** Yeah.


**Chris:** And, and And, and also, you know, a song like don't stop believing that it sort of did this and, and now it's, you know, it's everywhere, everybody. of a certain age and, you know, they know that song and they can sing it.


Bohemian Rhapsody, also canonical. And, you know, so that, that kind of thing is, I, I want to somehow, like, actually, like, make a list. I know that people have tried this in the past, like Grail Marcus, especially he's he has a book and there's a couple of books that try to explain rock and roll in 10 songs or, you know, just because it makes a good book title or something.


But, you know, the choices that he makes are very odd and, and he's trying, he's basically using them to sort of prove a point or to prove a point that he's already That he already believes himself. And so I don't totally buy all of that, but also I don't think you can just choose 10 songs.


**Morgan:** I


**Chris:** think it's, it's way more than that.


**Morgan:** And the last like decade, maybe.


**Chris:** Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing about Canon is I, I do, I find myself, you know, I make, I make a playlist for each, Unit or chapter or whatever for both my rock history class and my music history class and I have to I have to make it it can't be too long because the kids will just hate me and they, you know, so I really try to limit it to, you know, 8 to 10 songs, 8 to 10 tracks, really, And some of them are longer than others, but, , that basic number, it forces me to make decisions about, you know, well, why am I including this?


Why, why am I excluding this? Do I have more than one song from. One artist and in most cases I don't, but then in some cases I do like the, the Beatles I think the Beach Boys, I have multiple songs because they've, they had such different, you know, style periods and stuff. So, so that's, that's one thing that I do.


I think they're possibly the only bands I did that with perhaps the Rolling Stones. They, they show up on a couple lists. But that's that sort of act of really, really essential recordings is there. It's a really interesting exercise. Yeah, it is hard. It is hard. And I. And I have to do that with, you know, medieval music too.


And some of that is based on what, what's available and, you know, and also like, what do I think the kids would like, you know, because I don't want to just totally turn them off to this music. So yeah, that's, that's an interesting. Kind of part of my job, that it . And I, I like it. Yeah. I like that part.


It's, it is fun. But it's true. I do have a lot of power.


**Morgan:** in this. You really do


**Chris:** in this field. And I try to not let my own, you know, biases get in the way.


Yeah, yeah. I know. Like, how do you, how do you describe Igor Stravinsky in one piece? And I think most people would say, oh, well, Right of spring and that's usually what happens is that's what I put on. It's okay. It's right. A spring. Now there's my Stravinsky.


**Morgan:** Right. Even


**Chris:** though there's so much more that I could say.


**Morgan:** Yeah. Well, cause what those kids are going to take away again, just from my perspective, being a student is what am I going to hear like on the radio on what's going to be performed in the world once I leave college and will I be able to. Immediately say, you know, Oh yeah, that's Stravinsky. And is it close enough to the style, you know, maybe I don't know every single work by somebody, but let's just take Beethoven.


I may not have listened to everything, but do I know enough of his style from the listening that I did do to say, I think that's probably Beethoven. So like, if I can get close, I consider that a win at least. Yeah.


I wanted to ask you about another thing that in our correspondences, tell me about Sergeant pepper. What's special about Sergeant pepper other than it's an amazing album, but


**Chris:** yeah. So I did a. I gave a presentation at the Popular Culture Association Conference, National Conference in San Antonio in 2023, spring of 2023.


And my, my, basically my, my thesis was that the, the song, sequence of Sergeant Pepper is very important and integral to the whole experience of the album. So, and one of the things that I talked about was the key relationships between the songs. So it's, it starts, the whole thing starts in G and you know, you go, you kind of travel through various keys and stuff that the, the first side ends on E minor.


The second side starts in C sharp, which is really interesting. And then the whole thing ends on a, well, I should say the reprise of Sergeant Pepper ends in G and they do like about the two thirds of the way through that song, the reprise, they modulate, they go up a step from F to G. And that's a really, really interesting.


important moment because it gets us back to the tonic of the album, if you will. And so it's a, it was a really fun kind of exercise because the, the, they had like a different order for the first side that they, they originally had a different order and it ended with like, she's leaving home or something.


And then they switched it, and then the, the order that is now everybody knows is ends with Mr. Kite of side one. And then the second, second side was the same the whole time. So and then the, the the last song, A Day in the Life, It goes from, it alternates between G and E, and E, and the big final chord is an E major chord, which kind of mirrors the E minor ending of side one.


And so those, those things, those relationships and things were like really, really cool and really, I think, very well thought out. And it's, it's one of the reasons that I think that album is, it hangs together and, and people enjoy it as a listening experience because of this kind of very long term structural long term structure I should say.


And it, it sort of brought up, I think for me it brought up like, are other people talking about song sequence in albums? And if not, why not? And it's kind of an interesting field that I want to, I want to explore it more. Because I think it's relevant and, and it, it's sort of like I, I made some connections between Sergeant Pepper and like Song Cycles by Schumann and Schubert.


And they were really conscious of, of key areas and, and how the whole thing is going to flow. And, and, you know, this kind of the emotional journey that they take, they take the listener on. And I think listening to an album is very similar to Listening to a song cycle. Especially because they, they specifically said, you know, this is an album, we're not going to release any singles from it.


You sit there and you listen to it. And so it was a really, it was a, you know, it was a, it was a art piece that was a. Essentially a song cycle, you know, and those are the kinds of things that that paper was, was about and it was really fun to work on, you know? I


**Morgan:** did listen to my, my mom had these, well, my parents had boxes and boxes and boxes of records, and for some reason I really gravitated towards the Beatles right around the time I was, 12 or 13 and, and Sergeant Pepper and Abbey Road, I think I listened to like constantly.


Yeah, that's definitely would you call it a concept album? I don't know if that's entirely the right word. There's a word for it when they're all together like that.


**Chris:** Yeah. I don't know. Some people say it's the first concept album, but it's, maybe that's, there's a little bit of truth to that, but, but I don't think that they really thought of it that way.


Yeah. But my point is that it works as.


**Morgan:** It's a song cycle.


**Chris:** Yeah. It works as a unit because really because of that last song that the day in the life it's like you, you hit that final chord and it's like. Oh, wow. You know, you, it's sort of like, it sums up the entire journey in a way, just harmonically. And even if you don't know anything about music, it still has that effect, you know?


Yeah. And I, it's interesting. I, I listened, I, or I didn't listen to, but I went through the white album in the same way, like I figured out all the key areas and everything. And it's all over the place. There is no, there's really no. Pattern or rhyme or reason and that's the effect that it has on the listener.


It's like, oh, this is kind of weird Oh, that's that's a cool song. But then this one is totally weird. You know, they're it's very eclectic and all over the place and And I haven't done the same thing with Abbey Road But I probably should because I think it does it probably hangs together harmonically I have no


**Morgan:** idea.


I just remember that it was pleasing to listen to, but that probably means that there's something in there.


**Chris:** Yeah. Right. How


**Morgan:** cool.


**Chris:** Yeah. And so, you know, the song sequence is, it's something that I think, you know, the band slash the producer, they come up with, and they really, I think they really come up with it after.


Yeah, it's almost like a post production decision in, in some cases, unless you have like songs that are meant to be linked together sonically or something, but, but yeah, it's like, I think I read that they, they always knew that they were going to end with a day in the life. Because, you know, what could follow that?


So that makes sense. And they knew they were going to start with Sergeant Pepper. And then the reprise was kind of an afterthought, actually. It was like, that was one of the last things that they recorded. And so they, they had to do that modulation to bring it to the right key to start a day in the life.


But it also, it has the effect of like tying up the, the Sergeant Pepperness, you know? Right.


**Morgan:** The Sergeant Pepperness and then you go out in the world and end up in E.


**Chris:** Yeah. And in the day of the life, it's like, Oh, this is the real world kind of effect.


**Morgan:** It's a very chaotic song. Yeah.


**Chris:** Yeah.


**Morgan:** Huh. So do you frequently Go to conventions present.


What was that? Was that something that you attend regularly? Well, that's curious.


**Chris:** No, I was so the reason that I found that one was I was teaching. I taught a seminar on the Beatles in the spring of 2023. And so I was. Looking like I think the fall before that, I was saying, Oh, there are any Beatles conferences out there.


And there happened to be the popular culture association. They occasionally have like a Beatles year, you know? So they have like a bunch of Beatles nerds come and they give presentations on their stuff and they truly are nerds. They're, they're wonderful people, but like, wow, they, they know so much about the Beatles.


And, and so this was one of the years was a Beatles. Emphasis, you know, there was also a grateful dead studies emphasis that same year. So it


**Morgan:** sounds like different demographics


**Chris:** to me. It was, I went to some of their presentations too. It's the same thing


**Morgan:** again, stepping outside a little bit. How often do you think yourself, man, I just have the coolest job in the world.


**Chris:** I do pretty often. Yeah. I'm pretty lucky. Yeah, it was a really, it was a fun conference and I, I met a lot of great people. I met somebody who is, she's American, but she's actually going to school at the university of Liverpool, getting a master's degree in Beatles studies. Not kidding. Isn't that amazing?


**Morgan:** That's amazing.


**Chris:** They have a degree in Beetles studies


**Morgan:** degree in the Beatles. There's probably going to be a Taylor Swift degree at some point.


**Chris:** Swift. Swiftology.


**Morgan:** Swiftomania right now.


Oh, Chris, I could talk to you for a long time. I want to, I want to wrap up on, on a question that I ask every guest. So there's a phrase that I've started calling a zeitgeist moment. I don't know if there's another word for it, but you know, that feeling when you are just like, you're listening to something or you're writing or you're performing something and music.


And. You just like plug in, you click in, you're part of something bigger than yourself. From my perspective, that's usually what you're, you're plugging into the zeitgeist either of the moment or that you're in now or the time that was before you. So I'm going to ask you what was either a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment for you while you're thinking of that.


I'll share one. Of mine, and it was, and I actually want to share that it was a, a moment in my first class with you, theory one, freshman year of college, I had taken piano for, since I was like eight. So many years, you know, at the time, but I had not really formally studied theory. So this was my first, you know, I could, I could play a lot of pretty stuff, but it wasn't the theoretical knowledge of it.


I didn't really have that yet. And I'm pretty sure we were just learning about a 5 1 cadence. It was something very, very simple. And you were there, who knows how long you taught that, you know, how many times you taught that already, but you were sharing. And actually you'll probably make me honest on this, as far as the exact examples you used.


But in my memory you were using something from Like Mozart, 5 1, just a 5 1 cadence. And then you pulled up Rush.


I


don't remember the exact song, but I remember you were so excited. You got so excited. I'm like, this guy's taught this, like, this is so basic. I knew it was basic and it was new to me. And you got so excited that it was like the rest of the class, Ian. And I still remember that moment.


And we were just like the rest of the class. We're like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. Because you, again, you tied it all together and you made it relevant. And that was kind of the moment where I was like, wait, this could actually be kind of fun. Like maybe I'm going to like this theory of stuff. I was kind of rolling my eyes.


Like I wanted a minor in music. Okay. I got to take this class. And and that kind of changed, you know, I just, I suddenly like I clicked in and I got it. I'm like. Period. Okay. This is, this is fun and vibrant and it's like useful. Anyway, that's, that was a zeitgeist moment that I had in, in one of your classes.


So I'd be curious if there's a moment that you think of doesn't have to be teaching. It can be literally anything.


**Chris:** Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That's sweet. I recently I've been playing guitar electric guitar with, with a, with a friend of mine who also plays electric guitar.


So we have a duo and we call ourselves B a L D the basement apartment, looping duo, which spells bald. And you know, and we, you know, my friend is really into pedals and he loves, you know, all of these crazy echoes and, and octave duplicators and delays and really washy stuff. And so I just simply. not simply, but I, I literally just improvised over the top of what he's doing.


And so he sets up a chord progression, he loops it, and then he puts on effects and stuff. And then it's pretty much like any note, almost any note in the scale will work. Sometimes the, the scale changes a little bit, but, but I just, I think. that I was talking with him on the way home from a gig recently and we were talking about, you know, we, we just, it's okay to have music that doesn't really mean anything.


You know, this is the, these songs are about the chord progression itself. They're not about anything else. And, and, and we just, we don't even have titles for most of them. They're just simply. G or like FCG is one of the ones that we do. Right. And that's, those are literally the chords that we play is FCG.


And we have a lot of fun. And, and people, people listen to it and they, they seem to enjoy it. And it doesn't have to mean anything. It's, it's, it's, I'm quoting John Cage who is quoting Emmanuel Kant, and he said the two things that don't have to mean anything is music and laughter. You know, and it's, I think there's a lot of truth to that because I think we, a lot of us get wrapped up in this whole idea is like, Oh, what, but what does it mean?


You know, even like a sculpture, you know, a painting. Well, does it really have to mean anything? It's it's that's, that's something that, I'm not sure where that comes from, like, we're like, like searching for meaning and everything. But I think that we're, we're sort of in, in our little small way, we're sort of proving the point that no, it doesn't have to be anything.


It's just simply a core progression and a scale, you know, and


**Morgan:** what a fabulous way to tie up this entire conversation.


**Chris:** Yeah. It's like, it's, it's literally, it is what it is and you know, you can, you can either love it or not, but it's, it doesn't, it's not anything other than what it is, I guess.


**Morgan:** Yeah.


Sounds very freeing, honestly.


**Chris:** Yeah. That's really fun. And I'm kind of in this sort of headspace, like it's a, it's a sort of a Zen, very meditative kind of. Moment when I'm doing that, it's like, and now I understand why improvisers, they close their eyes, you know, when they're, when they're improvising, because it, it really helps actually.


You don't want to be distracted with anything else. You're just, you're just in the moment and you're playing notes.


**Morgan:** That's awesome. Well, Chris, thank you podcast. It was wonderful.


**Chris:** It was a lot of fun



Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio. If you'd like to take the next step in your musical journey, head over to zeitgeistacademy. com slash radio to join my newsletter. Seriously. It's fun and informative, and I never spam or sell your information. That's zeitgeistacademy. com slash radio.


Music for this episode was created by Ian Boswell. Please hit that subscribe button and tell all your friends you found a cool new podcast. See you next time.

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