Stepping into the cypher

With Coco Peila

Listen to the episode

 [00:00:00] What is the difference between spoken word poetry and rap? Technically, it may be less than you think, and yet as my guest, this episode will share, the cultural gulf can run pretty darn deep.  

Morgan: Welcome to Zeitgeist Radio, where we explore musical subcultures with people in the scene.

I'm Morgan Roe, and

today I am speaking with a rapper whose career started from one surprising comment that gave her the courage to step into the cypher. Don't know what that means. Keep listening. It'll all make sense. be sure to hit that follow button on your podcast app of choice. Now, let's get into the interview. My guest today is Coco Peila, a hip hop artist and songwriting coach in New York City. Coco, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio. 

Coco: Ah Morgan, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. 

Morgan: This has been a bit in the making and I am so excited. I am so excited. 

Coco: Yeah, me too. Me too. [00:01:00] 

Morgan: I don't know if you remember what I said to you when I like chased you down in the parking lot.

Coco: Something about it was about music, right? Because we're both musicians. Yeah, we're 

Morgan: both music and I, I, I was, I said, Coco, I'm really intimidated by you, which means I should probably come talk to you. That's right. 

Coco: At R what was that, ROI, right? It 

Morgan: was at ROI. Yep. Puerto Rico. I'm like. Run into my Uber and then you were there and I was like, oh, I can't leave without talking to her.

Coco: You're a brilliant woman. You are a brilliant woman. Yep. Oh, if most of us had half that courage, um, our, our careers would transform. Yeah. 

Morgan: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on my podcast, and I cannot wait for our conversation. Um, I would love to hear from you in your words, like. Who are you musically?

How would you describe yourself musically? 

Coco: I like to tell people I am what we call, uh, a hip hop [00:02:00] and all r and b, Afro Diaspora Flex. I'm a flex because? A flex? Yeah. I'm a flex. It's um, I think just like any artist who's really de dedicated to their craft, you can't. It, you actually can't really categorize what they do because once you get to a certain level, you're really channeling purpose and calling, and that can take different shapes.

But yeah, I, I like to call myself. Uh, a hip hop and r and b Afro diaspora Flex. I'm a whole last flex. Yes. 

Morgan: Which means we have a lot to dig into. That's right. 'cause you flexed into a lot of different spaces. That's right. So let's, let's start at the beginning, like, how old were you when you first started making music and.

Whether, and what was that? Was that singing or did your mom put you in piano lesson? What was your start like? 

Coco: So, I'll tell you my [00:03:00] earliest memory. So my first love was actually dance. Um, my earliest memory of like making music, singing free styling is probably, it's gotta be like nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one.

I was born in 87 and I was in the back seat in a car seat. If I'm not. I'm mistaken, and my brother was in the front passenger seat. And I don't remember what I was doing right. But I, I just was probably humming and babbling to myself and he was like, mom, make her stop. She doesn't even rhyme. And it's so interesting because I never made the correlation between like being obsessed with rhythm and rhyme as a rapper, as an mc and an architect of like rhythm.

But I'm pretty sure there's gotta be some connection, you know, in my young brain like. What does he mean? Rhyme? Like, okay, I'm gonna show you. But that's, that's my first memory. Um, the other memory as far as dancing goes [00:04:00] is, um, my grandmother took me to the Nutcracker when I was two or something. 

Morgan: You have some early memories.

Yeah. Hey, I 

Coco: do. I I am a therapy head. I, I love healing. So the more that you, at least in my experience, the more that I've done my heal, like on my healing journey. The further back I can remember and the more clearly I can piece everything together. Wow. So anyway, but yeah, I came home, I was jumping around the house, you know, doing my, trying to figure out how to do Russian ballet and so my grandma was like, okay, I see that you, you love this.

But anyway, yeah. So you started with dance, did you, did you go into dance for a little bit? Well, so we moved from, I was born in Seattle, Washington, and we moved from there to, um, Kauai to, um, Hawaii when I was six. So my grandmother put me in ballet lessons, um, which was pretty cool for me from the time I [00:05:00] was.

Yeah, like two, three until I was six. Um, which is very different. It's a very different rhythm. Yeah, for sure. Um, and Russian ballet isn't a part of my like, direct ancestral lineage, but I think just getting to express myself, you know, and, and lock into the music, um, with my physical body was, uh, and still is actually a big part of my creation process.

Morgan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what about performing? Did you, uh, you must have been performing ballet. Like what, was there something in that that really got you, that grabbed you? 

Coco: Well, I'll tell you this. I, my first, I, I don't remember any of those early recitals, but I do remember at seven years old, I got all the girls.

So we lived in like low income housing in. In Kauai and I got all the girls in my, my project together [00:06:00] and I was like, let's do a dance. Um, I, I had a tape, a cassette tape I had like Michael Jackson. I think it was like. Was it Thriller or was it off the wall? I don't remember, but I had a Michael Jackson cassette tape, and I had a salt and pepper cassette tape.

No. And so I was like, oh, we're about to choreograph to, you know what a man, which I didn't even really understand the lyrics at the time. But yeah, so I got everybody together. We choreographed something, and then I literally. Made these little tickets and I wrote 25 cents. Oh my gosh. And I cut 'em out and I went around to door to door knocking and I was like, we have a show on whatever day it was, and I'm selling tickets for 25 cents.

And so I organized my community and we put up a bunch of like plastic chairs in the backyard and that was like the first. Performance. Um, yep. So I would so buy a ticket as 

Morgan: a child, not on my door. It was like here, I mean, to dance. Yeah. That's so cute. Yeah. [00:07:00] Um, what about your shift into. Uh, performing vocally.

And what did that look like for you? 

Coco: So, it's so interesting 'cause I was not thinking about talking about dancing at all. But when I think of it, I'm like, oh yeah. And then in fifth grade I danced at the talent show. And then this is, so the transition into singing and rapping in front of folks. I think, when did I first perform?

I probably was in high school when I first started performing. In front of people. Um, I had always had a rhyme book, was writing lyrics. My auntie gave me my first journal when I was 11 years old. And then when I was 12 I started writing songs like, um, I had a little group when I was living in LA with my father, um, called The Black Pearls.

Me and my friend Amber and Jamila, and I was writing songs very, um, influenced by like. [00:08:00] At the time my father gave me two albums, the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and, um, Buju Banton in a Heights. And so I was very inspired by them, but I didn't perform live like singing or rapping until I was probably 16.

I did do some spoken word performances. Mm. Um. Before that. And I think it was a little bit safer because back then I'm talking about like the early two thousands, late nineties, like it was still a, a whole thing to be a female who rap. Mm-hmm. And you, you were supposed to pick either a singer or a rapper.

Um, and I also am very much a, actually an introvert. I'm like an extroverted introvert. So I was very shy. So the dancing was kind of easy 'cause you could practice a lot beforehand and then get up and like you don't have to talk really, or. Be nervous. Like if I'm too nervous, my voice might crack. Um, [00:09:00] but then when I was maybe I think 16, uh, one of my homegirls, um, brought me to this.

Thing called Youth Movement Records. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was like a youth run record label in Oakland, California. And Cool. That's the beginning of that. I got into the studio. We would have like live performances. And the cool thing too is that in Oakland, the, the hip hop scene is so, the community is really strong.

And so we had, we got to be mentored by all the, the skilled popping hip hop artists out there. So. That's when that started. And it was scary as hell. I was so scared. Yeah, you're scared. Oh my God. To this day, even, even, um, singing in front of like a small group of people, one person, or even if it's, you know, thousands of people, it really.

Honestly, there isn't a difference between like performing at the Hollywood Bowl in front of 17,000 people and like being in a room of five people and they're like, all right, [00:10:00] sing for us or rap for us. It is, it's, if you care about it, you know, it's, it can, yeah. The excitement and nerves get to you, so, 

.

Morgan: I'm glad you brought that up. I was gonna ask you, you have gone from that to performing in some pretty big venues, the Hollywood Bowl, San Francisco Opera House. Like, how did you get into circles that perform in venues like that? Like what did, what was that transformation from, you know, high school spoken word to Hollywood Bowl?

Coco: Yeah. Well, it's a combination of things. I think one is that I, I. I would say something that I'm, my, my word for this year is consistency. Nice. Um, the one, there's a couple places in my life where I've been consistent and my craft as a, as a rapper, as a songwriter, you know, as a songwriting coach, as a producer, as a singer, that has been [00:11:00] one of the most consistent places, I think, just because of the, the joy and purpose that I find in it.

So I think. Being, first of all, getting to, to cut my first record at 16 from, you know, an independent youth run record label. Mm-hmm. I didn't have to come out of pocket for any of those expenses. Made it more accessible to me. Mm-hmm. Um, and then getting experiences, like going on tour at, I, maybe I was like 18 or something with youth movement records and we got to perform at Experience Music Project when I was 19.

I went on tour with this group out of San Francisco called Loko Bloko, and they had like a 36 piece Batia, and that's when we toured Guatemala for like a month and a half, and that's when I performed at Guatemala. So I think some of it is just like relationships and being consistent at my craft and being someone who people knew, oh, [00:12:00] like she sings, she raps.

She writes, she can come into the room and like coach other people when they get stuck or like really pull all the pieces together. Um, and then the other pieces that I do also, you know, I come from a musical family, um, and it's, it's actually something I haven't really talked about much because I've never really known how to talk about it.

But yeah, my father is. An incredible, legendary musician. And our, our family is really big and beautiful and complex. And so there's lots of kids and, you know, different moms and different combinations and configurations of, of families. Um, and so some of those opportunities also came by way of, you know, 'cause I, I think for a long time I didn't really talk about it in, in part because.

I didn't grow up with my mom the whole time in my childhood. I didn't grow up with my dad the whole time in my childhood. I [00:13:00] sometimes live with like friends or siblings or aunties or that kind of thing. And so it was always hard to figure out how to tell my story because both of my parents live really unconventional lives in different ways.

Both of them are musicians. Um, um, and my mom was, she's passed away now, but, um, so for example, the Hollywood Bowl. Um. My sister cut a record that I featured on, and she invited me to come to the Hollywood Bowl to perform. And so, yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a combination of being consistent and then being, being given those opportunities and I was, I feel like, again, it's been a hard, a hard thing for me to figure out how to talk about, but I, I know that.

Some people really have to get it out the mud, you know? I don't know. Everyone has their different ways and their different connections right. In the industry. Yeah. Different like [00:14:00] kind of strengths or whatever the, the case may be. But um, I'm learning how to be a little bit more. Vulnerable and like bring people a little bit further in.

But yeah, I mean, I'm really good at what I do. I'm very consistent with what I do. I'm very dedicated and I've been doing it for a long ass time. I'm 38 and I started at a very young age. And, um, I have been given a couple opportunities at the point where I have been like, you know, um, skilled enough to, and you're able 

Morgan: to say yes.

Like you were in a position. Yeah. Because you worked to mm-hmm. Be ready. So that, when, that's when that came across, you were like, I can, I can do this. 

Coco: Yes. You were capable. And, and the other thing though that's really interesting about that is like, I lost a job over that, um, that gig. Wow. And I remember I was, I was working as like a, the kind of like music director of a youth music [00:15:00] program in the Bay Area.

And I remember telling my super, like my sister hit me up. She's like, yo. I have a gig at the Hollywood Bowl, like, we're gonna be performing, lettuce see's gonna be there. Like you have to come. And I was like, yo, if I come, I'm gonna lose my job for real. I'm gonna lose my job. And she was like, oh my God, okay, I don't want you to lose your job, but like, I really want you to consider this.

And I thought about it and I was like, okay, this is my dream. Like this is what I've always wanted to do. Yeah. If I, if I pass this up for fear of losing the job, then I'm telling the universe, I'm telling God. Well, this is what's more important to me. So, yeah, I remember letting my supervisor know, look, I had this gig, so on and so forth.

I, I'll get a guest artist to come in. Here's my, like, my prep. Here's the run of the day. This is what it's gonna be like. I had a, another teacher sub for me, but no, it was, it went left after that. But anyway, it was worth it. No, it was worth it. Totally. Every [00:16:00] time. It is always worth it. Yeah. 

Morgan: Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Um, so one thing that as I've been, you know, reading about you researching your work is really linked in with both social justice and climate justice. Can you describe what that means to you? How you tie these with, how do, how you tie your art with the causes that you care about and kind of where that started and where it is now?

Coco: Um. So much of this has to do with where I came up. So I moved to Berkeley when I was 14 years old as a young black girl. I got into the music scene. If you are on the hip hop scene in the Bay Area, Oakland, at least during that time, oh one 2001, Oakland was the hub. It's still the hub because that's where, you know, hip hop is a part of the [00:17:00] ancient.

You know, um, I don't know, how would I say it? Like the ancient technology, like it's a ancient African technology. It's a part of that lineage. And so wherever the black people are at, wherever you go, that's like generally gonna be the hub of hip hop because this is like, this is one of the ways that we express ourselves.

This is one of the ways that our ancestors speak through us. So. If you're, if you're involved in the hip hop scene and you in the Bay Area, you have to be like tapped in with Oakland. Also, San Francisco has a very rich hip hop history and so does Berkeley, but that's where I, that's who taught me how to rap.

It was MCs from Oakland, California. Um, and that's how, where I kind of cut my teeth, like where I learned how to perform as well. That's where. You knew you had two seconds to get up on the stage and grab that mic and had to have a crazy presence and confidence. Um, but anyway, so the reason I [00:18:00] say that is because Oakland is also the home of the Black Panthers, right?

It's the home of like uc, Berkeley is. Like a rich, rich has a rich history of like activism and social justice and organizing. Um, say, um, I could just, this whole interview could just be me listing off all the different leaders, organizers, activists, movements that have bloomed out of the Bay Area and so.

It's no surprise that also our music, oftentimes the, the grassroots artists or any artist who really come up out of like organically come up out the bay, have some social and political analysis in our music. It's just, it's, it's just par for the course. Um, even if you don't consider yourself to be a social justice artist or a conscious artist, um, I think that for me.

Hip hop requires that we [00:19:00] come to the cipher, that we step into the cipher with like as the true person that we are. And so as much as I really love and like listen to a lot of different MCs who maybe don't talk about, don't have a social and political analysis, or don't necessarily, maybe they might even stray away 'cause they don't wanna get caught up in like, oh God, the conscious rapper, here they come.

Or this is the, you know, this is the freedom fighter or the activist songwriter or whatever. Um, for me it would just be inauthentic to not talk about, these are the things that I think about. Mm-hmm. Like with my friends and my family members, and also I've been alongside sharpening my craft. I've been organizing, I've been, you know, engaged in, in liberation and anti-oppression movements and spaces, and have been really blessed to sit at the feet of like.

Just wonderful human beings who are dedicated to the liberation of all people and the [00:20:00] planet. And so for if I were to come in and, and tell my story or rap about. Things that I never have experienced or things that I don't think about or talk about, it just wouldn't be authentic. And hi, hip hop really does require that of us.

If you are, um, you're obsessed with baking cakes, then you better be rapping about that shit when you get on a track, if you're, if you wanna step into the cipher. And so for me, I am a nerdy, kind of like introverted, quirky, like. Lover of music and like absolutely nothing would bring me more joy. There are a few things in the world that would bring me more joy than like being able to push the needle in a real way to transform our society so that, especially in this moment where it's collapsing on so many people that like to be able to create an opening or create [00:21:00] structures or create movements that allow.

It to collapse on less people, like more people to be protected, more people to be resourced, more people to get their personal healing in a way so that they can interact and navigate the system better. So, um, I don't know if that answered your question. Yeah. Feel free to ask me 

Morgan: more questions. I know I have so many questions.

Okay. I know first of all. I am very white. You're gonna have to explain to me the cipher. I, I think I know what it is. 

Coco: So, so the cipher. Cipher is the cipher is a circle. The cipher is the cycle. I mean, okay, so if you're like a, a very nerdy, if you're a hip hop scholar, you're a nerdy hip hop head. If you are just a lover of hip hop, you could probably like, you really wax poetic, like the cipher is life.

The cipher is the seasons. The cipher is 360 degrees all the way back around. But the cipher [00:22:00] is when you see. A circle of people and everyone's kind of leaned in. Someone is beatboxing or someone is playing a beat, or someone is like drumming out a beat or there's no beat, but people just have a rhythm in their body and they're swaying their heads and someone is rapping or singing or even, you know, like.

Um, dancing, break, dancing, like that, circle that kind of un unbreakable circle of folks. That's the cipher. The cipher is when, when everyone gets together and they make their contributions, and it's not always like this. Tension free, like, you know, metaphysical like experience. Sometimes it's, it's a lot of tension, especially as a young girl, right?

Mm-hmm. We would constantly be pushing up in the cipher and they'd be like, what are you doing here? People be looking at you crazy or trying to push you outta the way, and you would have to like. Be so [00:23:00] fucking bold to jump in the middle. You have to be willing to, like, I'm about to cut this other dude off who's rapping right now with my loudest, boldest voice and my hardest bars.

And for me, especially like being nervous, I knew like, oh man, if I try to freestyle I'm, I'm gonna like, you know, um, clam up. So I always had a couple writtens written verses inside my head that I, I knew like. You know, we're coming out of a show, we're coming out of a function. We're just walking around just because it's life or whatever.

We're at a festival and you see that circle, you like, oh shit, what's going on over there? Let me like, let me pop up in there. So that's the cipher. But also, you know, like. We use the cipher as a metaphor for like so many things. And I think that it does represent life. It does represent like the cyclical nature of life.

It does represent like the rotation of like our earth around the sun. Um, the way that, you know, each year the earth [00:24:00] comes back around to the same. Spot and it's your birthday again, and you're like, oh shit, what was that last revolution around the sun like? Like what did I learn? What do I know? What do I have to contribute and share?

So, um. Okay. Does that, does that, yes. Thank you. You're gonna have to cut me off, Morgan, because I'm gonna just do, I'm, oh, no, 

Morgan: no, no. Uh, bring it, bring it. Um, okay. No, that's great. So, okay. So something really interesting that you brought up was the, just the, the courage of when you said that you were a young girl, that you say in 14, 15, 16, somewhere in there, cutting into these circles.

Uh, that sounds terrifying. I could absolutely see like what do you think that, like where did that drive come from? Have you always had this drive of I am, I'm gonna be at the Hollywood Bowl? Like, okay. Was that always there? To be honest, to give you the, the, the courage to do that 'cause Wow. 

Coco: [00:25:00] Um, yeah. It's kind of funny because if someone.

Sees me on like, so people will often tell me, like, if they meet me in person, they'll be like, oh, I thought you were a bitch, or I thought you were just like, I don't know, just a different type of a personality because like if anyone meets me in real life, unless they're on some bullshit and they're like, you know, threatening young children or defenseless people, like you're actually gonna come, come in contact with a pretty warm, sweet and friendly like.

It's mostly bubbly, unless I'm completely drained and I've had too much people time and I'm like, I need to go back into my shell. Cannot connect with other human beings. And, um, but yeah, in general, yeah, I did. I actually had a vision when I was four. I remember we were in, we were, I don't remember if we were living on Capitol Hill or where me, my mom, my older brother, Luis.[00:26:00] 

Lived in this one bedroom apartment. I believe it was one bedroom. We had a cat hasten. Anyway, side note, my brother told me that her tail had teeth in it and that it could bite me. It was very scary, but I remember. City. We had like a, a bunk bed and there was like a window, if I'm remembering this correctly.

And if we like jumped up and down, we could like jump and like look out the window and see the city down below. And I just remember like somehow this vision. Jumping into my mind of being like a grown woman and being on stage in front of like thousands and thousands of people, like a sea of people, enough that I couldn't make out anyone's face.

So that's the, my first memory of like that kind of vision dropping into my mind. Um, but I also think there was a lot of cognitive dissonance and sometimes I wonder, you know, did that come into my mind because I was living with my mom and my brother. And we were in our world, in our life, but then I had this [00:27:00] father who's like this established musician out in the world, you know?

Mm-hmm. Living out his purpose and dream. And I don't know, I don't know if there was any like projection on me, like of my mother, like, oh, you're gonna be a musician like your dad. Or if I picked it up from the air, if it was just. Me as a young one being really clear and, and channeling my purpose. But yeah, I, I knew and I think that's what's made this journey feel like it was so long.

'cause I'm like, dang, I've been knowing this shit since I was, since I was four. Yeah. Yeah. But um, but yeah, and I think that there's also, I don't know if you've had this journey with yourself, but like sometimes you can know something is that your pur you can know your purpose, but you can also question it or doubt it.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like, did I make that up? Am I gassing myself up? Am I like imagining myself or my, my purpose to be larger than life when really it's X, y, Z? So I feel like I have struggled with a [00:28:00] lot of self-doubt, um, over the years because the vision that I had so many years ago, there's no it, the thing that I'm doing now didn't exist.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. At the time, what, that was like 1990 or something, that, that vision popped into my head, but I had no way to like understand what even, you know, like who I would become or how that would be possible. As far as pushing up in the C ciphers. My sister is the one that put a battery in my back because we were at, so I al I've, I've been writing raps since I was young.

I had been writing rap rap since maybe like 11 or 12, as soon as I got that journal. But it was a secret. It was kind of this thing like, okay, these are my little raps. I rap them to myself. That's it, period. And then I would do spoken word, which was basically like raps in disguise, [00:29:00] but I knew, yeah, okay. As a, as a young black girl, if I do spoken word.

That's not gonna threaten anyone. Yeah. Particularly the young men around me. If anything, they could be like, oh, I like your poetry, like cool poetry. And I could be like, oh, thanks. Whereas when you say, I'm, I'm actually an mc, now you're an opponent. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And for me, I was like, I don't want that target on me.

So I'm like, oh, I'm, I do spoken word. Right. But what happened is we were at some, we were at a hip hop event at this, um, super dope. Um. Venue that still exists. It's called La Pena Cultural Center. It's in South Berkeley, and they have a long, rich history of social justice activism and organizing and cultural organizing and just bringing, um, amazing artists from around the world to have to be there.

So it is, it is amazing. So we were there and it was a hip hop event. And, you know, the mc was on stage and it was like, are [00:30:00] there any MCs out in the, you know, out in the crowd like we about to freestyle, which is common at the end of shows, at least in the Bay area. They would have this moment where like if you rapped you could get up on stage and kick a freestyle or whatever.

And I was like, you know, shrinking, trying to like squeeze back into the shadows. And my sister was like, go on, get up there, get up there. And I wouldn't, I was so terrified and shy and, um. Afterwards, she was like, you know, the only reason that they call what you do poetry is because you're a girl. And I was like, what?

Like, it just, I was like, I see red. I was, I was, I was done. And I, and for actually, I feel like for a good, like. That it motivated me for a good like 18 years. That was like the motivation I have to prove myself. I have to prove that I am a rapper. I am a mc, and I'm cold as hell. My bars are hella hard and dah, dah, dah, dah.

It's only actually [00:31:00] very recently, over the past like two, three years, that I've made a shift from feeling like I need to prove myself with my music, prove that I'm good enough. Mm-hmm. Work harder to be good enough Then. As then just being like, okay, like how can this gift serve the planet? Serve the people, serve, you know, God, serve the universe, serve my ancestors, serve the, the purpose and calling that I walk with how.

Like, is it good enough? Is it the best? I don't know if that's really my business. I should always strive to be more and more excellent in this expression, be like the highest expression of myself and what I'm called to do. And B, but it's only more recently that it wasn't just this battery in my back of life.

I gotta prove that I'm the best at, particularly at rapping. Like really overcompensating for all that fear and [00:32:00] self-doubt that I felt as a young girl. Um. And yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, thanks to your sister. Wow. Yeah. She put a battery in my back. I was like, what you mean? 'cause I'm a 

Morgan: girl. Oh yeah. , and actually, that's really interesting that I never, I've been interested in spoken word as like, tangentially related. I, I can, I've understood that there's. Flow to it that is musical, but I'm not really a poetry person, so I never really thought about it in this way until you just brought that up, 

Coco: that they're, they're cousins.

They're, they're definitely related. 

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely see especially the, the rhythm of it. Um, yeah. That's interesting.

Morgan: I talk a lot on this podcast about perfectionism, performance, anxiety, and the general fears [00:33:00] involved with putting ourselves out there as artists, even amateur ones, perhaps, especially amateur ones. I do this partly because I relate to it, and partly for transparency that you are not alone if you feel this way.

You heard Coco. She's performed for tens of thousands of people and she still gets nervous even when there's just a few people in the room. Well, I'll share something personal here, which is that I had to confront my own fear just to approach Coco to ask her on the podcast. She has some pretty serious clients and collaborations, names you would absolutely recognize as being like wildly famous.

I had some pretty major imposter syndrome asking her to be on my podcast, but I'm so glad she did because not only did we have a wonderful conversation, but she reminded me what I'm always trying to remind you, just do the thing and it will often go better than you think. So I. Coco, thanks. I had a great time.

If you're enjoying this conversation, please take a moment to like Zeitgeist radio on Facebook or Instagram, or if you're really loving it, you can [00:34:00] sign up for my newsletter on my website@zeitgeistacademy.com slash radio. . I send out content about cool things I learned from my guest.

Right now I'm on maternity, so I'm doing monthly episodes and monthly newsletters. Now let's get back to Coco.  

Do you remember the first song you ever wrote where you thought like, this is really good? 

Coco: I mean, so that's so interesting. So I was writing from a young age, but to get to the point where to have a sense of this is really good. Yeah. That was only more recently, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that, that, that.

If anything has held me back, or ways that I've gotten in my own way, is just like deep, deep sense of self-doubt. Just deep, deep insecurity. And it took me a very long [00:35:00] time on my own work, on my own journey to be like, oh, this feeling of like. I'm not good enough. This is like a boilerplate, like something that got set in at a early age and like there's no amount of accolades, achievements.

There's no level of skill or excellence or qualifications that I can, like garner that are gonna make this feeling go away. I actually just have to turn and face it and like be like, what the fuck did you just say to me? Like, actually I am good enough and I'm, I'm about to drown out all of that noise with affirmations and with action, like, action that affirms who I am, you know?

Um, and I'm also gonna surround myself with people who. Um, are so grounded and, and seated in their, their power and their strength and their gifts that I won't feel like I have to shrink or anything like that, or [00:36:00] tear my own self down. So, to, to the question of like, do I remember the first song where I was like, oh, this is good.

That the volume of that self-doubt and that it's not X enough has been so loud in my head most of my journey, that I don't think I couldn't hear anything else. Maybe that once in a while there would be like something that could break through the noise, where I'd be like, this is kind of good. Or like, oh shit, that's dope.

Or like, but it was always. Kind of drowning in so much self-doubt. Like maybe there'd be a moment of clarity like, whoa, that was ew. And then immediately right behind it would be a voice of like, oh, I don't know. Is it good enough? What does so-and-so think? Nah, it's not good enough. We have, and I think the, the hidden gift in that is that I have refined and refined and refined and developed mm-hmm.

My skills as, as a songwriting coach and as a producer where I can just comb through something. And comb through, you know what I'm saying? Like the way that you would be like with that [00:37:00] little, what's that thing where people be on the, the, um, the beach looking for the, the J. The G Oh, 

yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Where I can just like comb 

Coco: combers. Yeah. Through this, the sonics of the sound through the lyrics and be like, okay, where are the gems? Where are the gems? Like all of this, this is fluff. This is not a part of this story. This does not serve the story. This does not serve the impact. This does not serve the intention.

Nope. That could be tighter. That could be tighter. And I think that. That can only carry you so far until it actually becomes a block. You know what I'm saying? Perfectionism is actually not, it's not actually a gift. It's not actually a good thing. And it also doesn't leave space for things like, you know, because you have to be able to be like, you have to be pleased with yourself and like love yourself and feel enough to enjoy the exchange.

With another human being and in collaborations, and I think so much of the time, like I wa, I was available to big other [00:38:00] people up and be like excited and exuberant about what other people were doing, but I never could quite feel like what I was doing was enough. So what I feel like I started really the first time that happened, it, it was some time point in my.

My thirties, probably my early thirties, like very recently, that I was like, oh shit, this shit is good. Like my last album, confessions of a Black Feminist Rapper, part Three, elevate. That was the first one where I was like, actually, I, I stand on this. Like maybe, you know, I, I hope that I will just keep growing and building, but like this.

Like, I'm in love. This is something that I would listen to myself, and that's what my mentors would always say. You know, like, you have to be able to, it needs to be music that you would listen to on your own if it wasn't you, so 

congratulations. That is so big. 

Coco: But, but it's a love. Your work is so big. [00:39:00] It's big, but, but, but, but the crazy part is that I, I still, even as I say that to you, I'm like, well.

But this song, like, I feel like it's pitchy on here, so I'm still working through that. Like, just, if I'm being completely honest, like, yeah, I'm still working through, like laying that, that voice of self-doubt to rest and just being like, Hey, it's okay. Like, take a night off. Like it's, it's gonna be okay.

Sit down. You know, 

you know, I, I've had so many people on this podcast from, you know, zeitgeist, like, it's, it's. It is all genres, right? Yeah. Like I've had classical people on here. I've had LEC people who make electronic music. I've had such a gamut of artists. So many of them say the exact same thing. Hmm.

And I think there's something in art. I mean, we could get philosophical here, but I think there's something in art when you see what, like a purity, uh, like the absolute of what it could be. And then you will always fall short of that because [00:40:00] the world isn't an absolute. So there is no such thing as perfection, but we, we can, I think certain people can see it and being able to knock it wrapped up in that, this conversation I have with a lot of people on this podcast.

So it's really interesting to hear you say that because again, you come across like you're so confident and you're so, like everything you've done is so big. So it's really interesting to hear all of these vulnerabilities. That are very relatable, I think, to a lot of people. 

Coco: Yeah, it's, I, I appreciate hearing that and getting that reminder.

And I think that that's why like that Erika Badu quote, like, I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my shit is such a, a hard hitting quote for like, it just, I feel like it's echoed through several decades because like. When you're in the creative process, or at least me, I know for myself, like it is a, it is a spiritual experience.

Yeah. It is one of channeling something, [00:41:00] tapping into something that's much bigger than you, you know, that, um, that has a perfect, it's beyond you, beyond your ego, beyond, like I said, any accolades or, you know, like, um, approval that other people can give you. But then after you, you're done channeling it.

This amazing, you know, you've channeled from source, God, the creator, the universe, whatever you wanna name that force. Mm-hmm. And that's a what a powerful feeling to have that type of information, expression, energy creation, energy running through your body, through your vocal chords or through your mind as you're coming up with these concepts and figuring out how to translate them into rhythms and sounds and melodies and, and stories.

But then like the channel naming is over. And then you're a human. You're just a grain of sand on the beach of like life, you know, in this beautiful universe that we live in. So, you know, you back to like, oh, well, you know, I don't know, like, [00:42:00] you know, whatever it is that you would do as a grain of sand, you're just like this, you know?

So, I don't know. I feel like it. It's normal for us to have those, um, those insecurities and, and questions, especially just in the society that we live in, that actually mm-hmm. Thrives off of us questioning ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, 

yeah. So let's switch over. I have so many questions. I don't think we're gonna get to all of them, but let's switch over to, um, if you're a songwriting coach, really curious.

'cause you've mentioned a, a few things about like your personal. Um, like how you personally are receiving and writing and producing your own music, how do you then take that? Um, what was the shift for you of like, I can do this for other people, this very personal experience I can take to other people.

And what does that look like? 

Coco: So this is something, you know, how [00:43:00] like you. Come to a point where you realize that you've been doing your calling all along, and that you know it, it's because it's come so naturally to you. You didn't really realize you were doing it, or maybe you didn't value it. Like I'm someone who.

You know, in the, the business community that we met in, right? Um, hello seven. Like Rachel always talks about like, what's that thing that like all your friends come to you for? Right. And like, I can't tell you how many recording sessions, songwriting sessions, long ass phone calls in person, conversations after performance moments where people have sought me out to be like.

What do you think about this? Or, Hey, I'm stuck on this. Or like, can you take a listen to this song? Or, well, I have this vision for my [00:44:00] song or my project and how it's just been like, for me, it's, it's actually energizing and thrilling to be like, oh, well, like what if we. What if we like muted this and like brought this up?

Or like, what if we flipped this around and did this or like, have you ever talked about that? I think the transition really happened where I just basically started saying what it was that I did. Yeah. And like charging for it versus just doing it in every space. I think the same thing happened for me as a producer where I didn't know that I was producing.

Because coming up on the Bay area, seeing like a lot of the independent artists were multi hyphenates and were producing their own, their own stuff. But yeah, as a songwriting coach, the, it's, I don't know, I think I one, so they had us take that, remember they had us take that? Strengths, [00:45:00] strengths, binders test.

So my top strengths are strategic thinking. Um. Individualization positivity. Um, there's a couple more, but basically like the thing that lights me up is being able to reflect back to someone their beauty. Their story, their value, their significance, um, their ability. And to see someone light up because they realize they can actually tell a story that they didn't think they could tell, that they do have something important to contribute.

That every single artist, no matter what skill level they're at. Has something completely unique and incredible to offer the world, and I think that that, that's the first place that I come from, like that's the starting point for me. So I'm never in a room with another [00:46:00] artist like cutting them down or criticizing them or summing them up.

And maybe that comes from. My own story, right? And my own, like my deep, like how much I had to crawl up out of so much criticism and self-doubt and insecurity that I think that because I've had to be my number one cheerleader to enable me to come out from under that and offer my gift to the world, I just have a gift to be able to like love on someone.

And I think that my, it's a combination of like, I think that. I have this like warmth and care and love for other human beings. That's very real. It's not like an act. It's how I am to a fault. You could not like me. I still like you, right? I still like you. Um, I really love people, but I think I also have the gift of like vision and that that looks like seeing something years or [00:47:00] decades before it happens.

I've done this with a lot of people where I met them and I'm like. You're going to X, Y, Z, you're going to, and like people will come back to me years later and be like, oh my God, how did you know that? It's just like, it's just a feeling. It's just an in intuitive feeling. But I think when you move through the world oriented towards the beauty and the gifts, where you're kind of curious like, what's her story?

What's his story? Like? What, what is her special? Like what, because those things. If you orient towards people, like the things that are different about them are, how do you say it? Like are flaws, then you miss out actually on these distinct gifts and offerings that people have. So something that where, whereas somebody might be in a songwriting session with an artist and be like, oh, they need to clean that up.

They need to polish that. I can see like. Oh my God, this, this is like, this is something special that nobody else [00:48:00] can do. And so, um, yeah, I think the combination of having done the shift for a long ass time, having been able to do different aspects from the songwriting to the record production, to being able, you know, having been recording for over 20 years as a recording artist to being on the stage.

Understanding how all those pieces connect. Um, and then, um, spending so many hours in with my journal, writing songs and all that stuff, but also just honestly just being able to like, love people and, and care about what their story is, um, and create a certain type of a environment where. Creativity is, is like a being unto itself and you have to create the right kind of vibe and energy for it to peek its head out and then be able to know it's safe to come out.

And [00:49:00] to, for me, when I get in these sessions and I see these producers like cutting down the vocalists or like, oh, that's horrible. You have to do it again. There's a different way to bring out the best performance of an artist. There's also. You have to understand that the artist is actually the expert on their story and how to tell it, and the flourishes that they're gonna add.

And so part of it is just creating an environment where that artist's genius is safe and supported to come out and express itself. And the thing is, if you know. If you move through the world and you understand that everybody has that, then it's, it's actually very easy to be in a space with an artist, whether they're a world class, Grammy winning, nominated, whatever, very highly decorated artist, or whether they're a young person and this is their first time ever writing a song.

Um, when you know that there's no difference between. The, [00:50:00] the young person, and it's their first time on the mic, or it's their first time writing a song and like the highly decorated vet. Mm-hmm. You know, um, that's, that's where the magic happens. And also being able to see people, I think too. Okay. Can I just say this last thing?

Yeah. The, I think coming from a musical family, having a father who is like an, like, you know, an international treasure, a legend. I think also growing up in some ways, like inside of that legacy, but also some ways on the periphery of that legacy Yeah. Has given me a particular, like I lived a life that like people wouldn't think that someone who grew up with a father like that would live.

But then on the, at the same time, I feel like I could tell, oh, like people whose parents aren't. This type of, you know, a, a famous established artist actually also don't have access to these re resources or these [00:51:00] experiences or whatever. Right. And I think that made me be very precious about Mo both of my parents, even though my mom wasn't like, didn't have that type of status, but she had a different set of struggles that made me also very protective of her story.

And I think watching the way that people interacted with folks that they thought had. We like gatekeepers or had made me very mindful. And then if somebody would find out who he was, you could tell, like they would get that like zombie glaze, like, oh, you're something special. And it's like, I'm actually the same person that you were just shitting on two seconds ago.

I'm, I'm still just like the regular, quirky, nerdy, you know, kind of insecure, awkward person. But, so I think that that also has given me a peek into like how to, how to like see people as human beings, especially when working with. High profile or like world class artists, like they are for real, for real.

They, they [00:52:00] are human beings. Like they bleed, they hurt, they like make mistakes. They're just like all of us. And so also like not objectifying people I think is important too to, in the creative process so that like they can just come and show up and tell their story. 

Yeah. Oh, so many gems. I'm sorry. More than sorry.

I love it. Do you wanna talk about trigger warning? 

Coco: Yeah. Trigger warning confessions of a black feminist rapper, part two. Um, it's the second project in this confessions trilogy. This shit is fucking dope. Um. Okay, there's only gonna be a thousand of these, um, limited edition packages pressed up. It's not on streaming platforms.

Um, it drops on the 29th of November and there are 991 packages left. I don't know what y'all gonna do with that, but [00:53:00] No, but, um, people can learn more about the project on my website, coco palla.com. But yeah, this is. S like I said, it is been a really long journey and like kind of a, a journey of like integrating who I am, this cognitive dissonance of growing up with this very complex childhood with my mom, and then kind of trying to navigate through the world with and without my parents, and then having my father too.

Um, this is just all of the stories that I never told and kind of the integration of. Their paths and, and my story and my, my inner child and you know, how she survived, what she did Elevate, which was a project that I dropped previously. I'm telling the story kind of in a different order. 'cause I wanted to start with the triumph, the transformation, the, this is who I am, this is the woman who I am now, and then now that you know, okay, I survived.

And this is who I am now. I feel like that is enough of an [00:54:00] anchor that you can come down with me to the bottom and, and know where I came from and know, you know, how I came up outta that because, you know, we're headed towards the light. I didn't wanna tell the, the, the hard part of the story first. So trigger warning.

I mean, it is what it is. It's like, okay, y'all trigger warning. It's about to be. Real grimy up in here because this is, you know, this is a part of my story too and I want people to know it for real, for real. Um, so it is also really beautiful. I think being the second in this trilogy, it's had the benefit of marinating.

I've had the benefit of getting to like, reproduce things. Um, I'm working with Scott Ja, Jacoby of Usonia, and he's just like an. Excellent, excellent mixed engineer. Just like astounding. He's also adult songwriter and producer. Um, and it's just been amazing to just get to work with him. We worked on. [00:55:00] Uh, the first single off the project.

So he mixed perfect love. And that dropped actually on my birthday, February 12th. If people wanna listen just to get a taste. 'cause you can hear an artist be like, oh, it's dope, it's fly, it's fresh, you're gonna love it, and then you listen to it, right? So I wanted people to also get a chance to listen to it, especially 'cause it's not gonna be on streaming platforms.

So you don't get the album package, you don't get the music. But I did release, um, perfect love and you can listen to it. By signing up for my newsletter. So same thing, just go to coco palla.com. At the very top you'll see like the signup. You can just put your name and your email address in, and then you'll get updates from me.

And, um, you'll get a, a private listening link to Perfect Love, and it'll give you a taste of like the sound, the story, um, the content and the beauty. And I'm, I'm very proud of this project. Um. Yeah, and people can also contact me through the [00:56:00] website too if they're interested in songwriting coaching, VIP days, 

and I'll put that link in the show notes so everyone can just go click on it and go and, oh, amazing.

This flew by. I have one last question. Yes, yes. Amazing. Um, so this is Zeitgeist Radio. I end every, um. Every episode with this question, so zeitgeist, in case you don't know, I mean spirit of the Times, it's a, a German word that's like what it feels like to be alive and and connected to any particular like culture.

I like to also bring it into like smaller rather than broad cultural movements, which it can absolutely be used for. There's like microculture too, micro zeitgeists, so there's a term I've. Of, uh, coined a term zeitgeist moment that refers to that moment where you just plug in and you're just part of something bigger than yourself.

Mm-hmm. And, [00:57:00] um, I think as artists we all kind of strive for that. Um, so I will ask you what was either a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment that you'd like to share while you, uh, think about that? I have one I'd like to share with you. Um, I haven't been at the Hollywood Bowl, but I have, uh, I've, I'm a singer.

I've done a lot of choir stuff. Most of my, um, background is classical and. In Portland, we got the immense privilege to perform with Andrea Bocelli, the Opera Star at the Moda Center in Portland. And that was, um, the biggest show, hands down I'd ever done. And we worked. Obviously we'd, we'd worked as a group, got our part solid.

One rehearsal, one show, and that was the first time I'd ever been in front of a huge venue like that. Um, [00:58:00] I'd been in, in, you know, concert halls oftentimes sold out, which is pretty amazing. But the Moda Center, you know, much, much, much, much bigger. And I remember. Walking on stage to that show. Um, in the rehearsal.

Andrea bot Shelly wasn't even there, right? He was on a plane. Um. It was more like the logistics and just how tight everything was. That's, that was a whole nother moment. But, um, walking on stage, knowing that everything was being filmed, like every facial expression I made could end up, uh, you know, on these huge cameras or on wherever it was being, uh, streamed.

And, um, I remember. Looking down, like we were going on on stage to take our positions. And I remember looking down and seeing the guest artists, 'cause he had so many guests come and join [00:59:00] him, just like chilling in this little area with their families. There were like kids and for, I mean, again, my first time.

On the stage, but for them it was just such a normal day, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think it was the presence of their kids that made me like almost relax into this moment and realize like, this is a whole world that these people, you know, like I said, this is a normal Friday night for these people. Mm-hmm.

We've got for these kids, for the moms, for the spouses, for whoever. Um. And it really kind of grounded me. 'cause as a performer, you know, I'm used to performing for families. I always went to my mom's performances. I also come from a musical family. And it was just such a normal thing that your family's there to support you and to have these kids at the Mota Center for like these [01:00:00] superstars, you know, singing with Andrea Bocelli.

Mm-hmm. Um, I, I, I kind of got a glimpse into a world that was. Bigger than myself, that I had never thought of it in that way before, and I thought that was a really beautiful moment. Mm-hmm. Because it felt just like you were just saying, like they're just people, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wonder Belli is a world class tenor.

He's a guy with a family and kids, and, 

Coco: yep. 

You know? 

Coco: Yep. 

Part of hims just a guy, part of hims got a real nice voice. Yep. Yep. And, um, yeah, so that was a, a special moment in that, that I wanted to share with you. Hmm. I would love to hear from you, um, an experience, either a memorable one or a recent one where you plugged into something higher than yourself.

Coco: It's so interesting that you mention young people because I was [01:01:00] hired to teach songwriting to enter elementary school students here in Brownsville, Brooklyn, and just by the way that the cards fell after maybe about six months. SI was needed in the second grade general education classroom. And mind you, I don't have a background in general education.

I've been a teaching artist for also alongside all my work, like teaching songwriting workshops, teaching young people, like all that stuff. So I ended up as the lead teacher in a second grade class this year. And so this year I'm on this journey with them and these are my babies. Um, but I. I remember 'cause I was like really struggling.

I'm like, I don't know how to do this. Like general educa, like it's, it's a whole for, for my classroom teachers out there. I would have no 

idea. 

Coco: Y'all, I, my hat comes off to you. I always knew it [01:02:00] coming into the school. It's getting to be the cool rap auntie, Hey y'all, let's do hip hop music and culture.

Let's rap, let's sing, let's, you know, let's beatbox, let's write songs. Let's. That was great because you got to be the fun auntie. Yay fun auntie's here. Right? But it's so different to be that regular anchor that that person that they see, you know, as much as sometimes more than their parents. And I remember just like trying to figure out how do I teach them this curriculum?

Like this is also new to me and I'm always humming just like I was in that, that, um. That car seat, you know, back in the day. And I'm always humming and rapping and singing to myself. So, you know, I'm thumbing through my lesson plans, trying to figure out how do I launch this piece of math and I'm, and the whole class breaks out into rhythm.

They're drumming with pencils, they're swaying on the carpet, crisscross applesauce. They [01:03:00] drum it on their knees, they're clapping, making rhythms, they're humming and it's. All in sync and beautiful. Right. And that was like, oh shit. It was an aha moment too. Yeah. Because now I teach phonics, like with J Dilla instrumentals underneath them, and we have like call and response and we're singing and rapping the lessons as much as possible.

But it was also like, oh wow, like this. Vibration, this expression, this, this inherent human expression, music and rhythm, melody and rhythm, rather, like they, they're all tapped into, like we can all tap into. It was just the most beautiful thing. And these are six, seven, and eight year olds, you know, and they're, yeah.

So that, I would say that that's. That was so amazing for me. And I think also just in the classroom, because there's so much sit down, sit, you know, put your hands in your labs, turn your sounds off. There's so much, [01:04:00] I feel like squeezing and like shrinking of these young people's natural expression. Not their fault, it's not the teacher's fault, it's this is the way that the system is designed.

But to see them. Their facial expression, them just like come alive. Their movement, their eyes light up, and just to have this, um, this intelligence and this brilliance like just blossom into the classroom. So that, that's my most recent experience. That that is a beautiful moment. Yeah. I love that. It's in all of us.

Yes. And like to be, to feel so honored to like get to be their second grade teacher and have them teaching me like. For me, it's just as sacred as sitting in a, a songwriting session with Beyonce. It's like, it's the same thing that we're tapping into like our humanity, our, our intelligence, our genius, our expression, our purpose.

So, 

Morgan: yes. Oh, I love it. Coco, thank [01:05:00] you so much for coming on my podcast. Ah, this was so fun. Thank 

Coco: for having me. Yes. We finally made it happen. Oh my God. Morgan, thank you so much for having me. 

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio, to uplevel your musical journey and become a music student for life. Join the Zeitgeist Academy by signing up for my biweekly newsletter. You'll get exclusive content, blog posts, and behind the scenes insights. I love putting it together and you'll love reading it.

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