Building a musical community

[00:00:00] Are you a member of a club? Nah. Me neither. I guess maybe I've joined a fitness, what they call a fitness club at various points, but I just used it to work out. I mean more like a country club or a club where they play golf and socialize. Are those the same thing? I have preconceived notions that clubs are for fancy people, not for me, but maybe that's about to change.

Welcome to Zeitgeist Radio, where we learn about musical subcultures from people in the scene. I'm Morgan Roe, and today I'm speaking with a retired marketing professional who is devoting his newfound free time to building a club, but for musicians, Hmm. Color me. Interested. If you love this content, be sure to subscribe on your podcast platform.

Now, let's get into the interview.

Morgan: My guest today is John Avila, a bassist and co-founder and CEO of [00:01:00] Sound Union in Redwood City, California. John, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.

John: Thank you, Morgan. It's good to be here and I enjoy the, uh, opportunity to talk about music with people who love music.

Morgan: I mean, it's the best. It's the best. Uh, so I'd love to hear in your words, uh, who are you musically?

John: Who am I? Musically? I am, uh, a I, I'm in a spot right now where I am kind of living a little bit of my, my music dream. I, uh, I was a professional in marketing and advertising, had a career in, in Silicon Valley for, uh, a long time, and always played music on the side. And now I get to play music, uh, at least a few times a week.

I, I have a club here. The Sound Union is, is like a, we call like a health club for musicians, right? So our members pay a monthly fee to come in and we have everything they need. Instruments, studios, amps, everything's all set up. It's, it's, uh, [00:02:00] people come in, they hang out, they play, they have a good time. We have a, a club bar and, uh, even a performance space and, uh.

Actually, one thing I didn't count on in the business plan is, is that, uh, I, I don't get to play as often as I really want to.

Morgan: Oh,

John: no. A lot of players come in. Sometimes the bartender doesn't get a drink, you know?

Morgan: Right.

John: But I really enjoy, uh, seeing members come in and connect through music and we've, we are, are building just a, a really fun community.

So I get to, that's what I get to do when I come to work every day is, is work on. Establishing our location here in Redwood City, and we're already starting to talk about branching out to other locations in California.

Morgan: Oh, that's exciting. Good, good. Um, how long have you been playing?

John: So, I grew up in a pretty musical family.

Um, we had, uh, we had a large number of kids, uh, uh, in a. Good old Catholic family here in [00:03:00] California. Um, so I, I started playing probably sixth grade fifth, sixth grade. Um, and I just picked up the bass. My older brother handed me one, he knew how to play it and he showed me

Morgan: Nice. And

John: that set me off on, on playing the bass.

I was also in band and orchestra as a percussionist. Uh, so I've got that rhythm section stuff and. That was just been a part of my life since junior high. Uh, through high school, through college. We had great programs in junior high and high school in my, in my high school or my area, and really outstanding band directors that were nationally recognized.

We, we were competitive nationally and, uh, and after college, and I played in college in, uh, with the jazz band. Uh, and then after that, kind of got into being a dad and. Started to work, got married, started to have kids music. Kind of took a little bit of a backseat for a few years. Um, but as soon as the, uh, kids start going to school, you meet other parents [00:04:00] who play you form that mom and dad band, you know, and become the school band.

Uh, and that kind of reignited my, my involvement and passion in music as a side hustle. So I And you're

Morgan: stuck with, with bass, or do you ever play percussion still?

John: Oh, I, I'll, I'll play percussion. Um, uh, it's one of the unique things, like, especially at this club, uh, if a, if there's a bassist in the room, you know, um, of course my members take priority, so I'll, I'll pick up, uh, percussion and we'll play percussion.

And I also sing, I sing, uh, lead and backup, so there's always something fun to do in the room.

Morgan: Nice.

John: Um, uh, but that's, yeah, musically. It's just always been there. Um, except for that little bit of respite. Uh, and I've always found it to be this re-energizing exercise. Um, it is pretty addictive, right? And it's fun when you play with people you like and had a pretty high pressure job.

So you'd, you know, be cranking at [00:05:00] work and even in a creative industry like I was in, I was a creative director. Um. You still can do creative things to recharge your batteries and, and take new perspective. Um, and boy, you formed the best lifelong relationships with people. I've, I have people now I've played with for.

25 plus years that are my musical brothers and sisters. And there's a bond there, right? Yeah. That just don't get, I mean, maybe you get it playing golf. I dunno. I don't play golf, but I'm sure there are other ways. There's not that

Morgan: co-creation, but I don't know. I don't play golf either.

John: Exactly. Exactly. That co-creative process.

Yeah, there's something magical happens.

Morgan: Yeah. Awesome. So tell me, um, before we get too into, uh, what Sound Union is now, I'd love to hear what were the early days like when, when it was just like you were having this thought in the back of your head. There was no name, there was no, you know, you're just like, there's something here.

Um, kind of an itch. You're [00:06:00] scratching. What thoughts and experiences were you having about connection and, and people connecting through music?

John: Yeah. Great. I, I, I would say there. Maybe a few prongs to that. So around 2015, um, uh, I got, uh, I was in, I was in Mar I mean, I've been in marketing. I was, I was working at a company called GoPro and uh, and started to have to lay off some people, uh, as we shrunk.

And, and then I, I got the ax and, and in that process, music was kind of a. It helped me kind of deal with the, the pressure. You build a team and then you have to start thinning the team out. That's no fun. Um, so I started thinking about, okay, you know, life in marketing comes and goes, and I'm sure in your audience you've got people who are, who are in that field and, and, uh, you know, very few marketing folks stay in the same spot for like eight years, nine years, 10 years.

It's a, it's a [00:07:00] two and a half, three year cycle. And, um. I was like, well, I don't wanna get back into that cycle. I had had a pretty stable run and while I was doing other work and doing contracting, getting other jobs for the next two or three years, uh, I was like, you know, I have to do this another 15 years.

It's gonna be a grind. And, and the marketing industry is changing super rapidly even now. I mean, look, in the last few years with ai. I was a, I was a creative director, so I had words and, and visuals on, you know, team, in a team. Um, and I knew that it was changing. Uh, so I started thinking about what do I wanna do for my last act?

Um, and, and I learned early on in my career, that's how I got into advertising and marketing is, you know, what do I like to do? What am I good at? I'm good at writing, good at communicating, good at talking and, and brainstorming. Uh, and actually ironically, now that you, you've asked me [00:08:00] this, I, I didn't tie this back until just now, but I got into advertising and marketing because of music.

I thought, that's a profession that feels like jazz. You're in a room, you're brainstorming, you're throwing ideas. There's a lot of, you know, improvisation, especially early in concepting. Huh. So now I'm back into music because of that. Right? And, and I liked that aspect. So then I started thinking about what kind of music business, uh, could I create simultaneously being in a band and, and a pretty good one.

We were a, a really nice wedding band, dance band, had regular gigs, super fun. Um, and the band was full of accomplished not only musicians, but these were people who had great day jobs. I, I, I. I, I would say they were rock stars at work, and then we'd go and do music and we were in dingy garages that were too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer, you know, rats in the corners and you're, uh, [00:09:00] rehearsal warehouses that just don't fit the bill, uh, for, you know, think looking around and going, Hmm, there's probably a better way to do this.

So that's, those were kind of the, the key things that started to go in my head. All right. I. Maybe there is a business here. People, there's all kinds of clubs, right? And I didn't see a music club that, that I wanted to create. Um, and, and I happened to be reading, um, the, the biography about Steve Jobs and got to, you know, funny how things time in your life you get, as I'm thinking through this, I get to the page where it's like, basically the message is build what you wanna, what you want, and, and start there.

So then it all just snowballed and I started to formulate the, the real plan, um, of trying to create a club that is for people who like to play music in their spare time and want to connect with others. And here we are, almost 10 years [00:10:00] later, eight years later. Yeah. It takes a while.

Morgan: Yeah. Well, congratulations.

It is 10, this is, we're recording in 2025. So that's 10 years from the initial. Idea.

John: Yeah. Thank you.

Morgan: Yeah. Um, what were the early days like when you, okay, so you've had this idea, you've said, I'm gonna do a club, then what?

John: Yeah. Um, so it's a lot of, uh, non-work hours, right? I mean, you're, you're still working.

Um, yep. And formulating the business plan as a, as a marketing pro. I took a little bit of pride in wanting to do really good market research, understand who my target audience, not assume that everyone is gonna be motivated by the same things I am. So took a, you know, it takes a lot of weekends and, and evenings.

Um, so I would say that took about two years to really start to coalesce the point and talk to some of my friends. Uh, my, my best. One of my best [00:11:00] friends who became my business partner, he and I have worked together for 20 years in, in different companies. Um, so I, when I ran the idea past Tom and he said, yeah, I think that's a good idea.

And he's not a musician, but he got it and he has musicians in his family. We started to, I, I did a lot of independent, then pulled Tom in in 2021, finally incorporated, then, um, started to raise money, uh, because we need, we need some capital to launch this. Um, but the early days were up and down. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll be honest.

You get, you're cranking, um, you run out of energy. You think you're right. You keep doing research to, to, and you learn new things that challenge your precon, you know, preconceptions. One super fortunate thing that happened to me when I, as I talked to people about this in, in my circle, um, one of my friends said, Hey, I've got a buddy.

Um, who has a [00:12:00] place that sounds just like what you're talking about, that he, it's his own man cave. Um, little 1500 square foot, um, space. He's a super talented, super creative landscape designer. Um, and he did, he had a really cool little bar area, built a, a room with instruments in it. Um. Had, I mean, he's just a brilliant designer, so it, it was a very cool spot.

It's still a very cool spot. Fire pit and, you know, games and things like that. Uh, and he became a immediate friend when we started playing music together and talking about it. This is what happens with music. And basically said, Hey, if you wanna do any market research and bring people in, bring 'em to my, let's, let's bring 'em into the studio.

So, for. Up until COVID for about a year before COVID hit. Um, we ran sessions every month or so, so I would find people and use my network to bring in other people and, and run [00:13:00] sessions and feel like, you know, how do these things work and what do people want in a space? Um, and I was lucky that that Brian space was just outfitted beautifully.

Um, and, and very. Very much what I had in mind to create. So we were very parallel, COVID hit that, put things on, on quite a bit of, you know, that a, a very big hold. Um, and I was working full-time as a, as a VP of marketing, um, you know, with challenges and COVID and, and how do you keep a team alive and keep a team integrated and all of that.

Um, so we did that through COVID and then as we came outta COVID. Let's see, what was it? Maybe, like I said, about 2020, um, um, the, the company that I was working for got bought, uh, by one in, in, uh, by another company in St. Louis. So we all got downsized, handed our, handed our parachutes and got out. Um, and then I started [00:14:00] working full-time in 20, late 2020 by 2021.

In May, um, we incorporated, uh, and then went to town starting to raise money, and it took us a couple years to, to bring the money together and find a space.

Morgan: Nice. Wow. It's quite the journey. Yeah. So it's a longer, I really appreciate you getting into the weeds with that. Kind of the more like grindy stuff.

'cause I think a lot of it can just seem so shiny, but it's just like, like music. Um, you know, I'm classically trained and uh, piano player. Vocalist. Oh. And so you get the, you know, you perform, you get the shiny part, but like all of the hours and hours and hours in the practice room, all those hours at the piano working on the same thing.

What if I do it this way? What if I phrase it this way? What if I do it that way? It's the parallels with, uh, business and music. Right. There you were.

John: Yeah. And it's the work in the

Morgan: practice room.

John: It's all that mixed in with the startup journey. Right?

Morgan: Yep.

John: And, and, um, we hear startup. [00:15:00] Entrepreneurs like to talk about, oh, I got to here.

But it really is up and down. I mean, there are times you think, how is this gonna work? And perseverance is, um, one of my strong suits in a good way. And some people would say it's not as strong. Uh, but you know, you just gotta, if you believe what you're doing

Morgan: Yeah.

John: You look for and get those tells that say, yeah, this is really something people.

Want, you just gotta keep figuring out how to, how to shape it. Um, I mean, that's what it takes to start any business, I think, um mm-hmm. From, you know, big high tech to an ice cream store. It's the same kind of a thing, I think.

Morgan: Yeah. Did you find that coming out of COVID um, people like I started this, this podcast during COVID as a way to connect with my musician friends.

Yeah. Did you find that people were. Had their motivation changed from your initial research [00:16:00] coming out of COVID?

John: I think so. That's a really good question. Yeah. I, when we came out and, and people could start to gather again and, and it took a little while. So imagine you're a musician. I. To sing in a room.

Morgan: Mm-hmm. Right.

John: Um, and, you know, we still were worried about how close do we get when we sing, you know? Mm-hmm. Horn players blowing and mm-hmm. Having, having the horn spit and all that stuff. Um, so, but for the mom and dad's bands who are, who are a big part of my, my audience, I saw right away. An interest we got right back into my friend Brian's studio.

We, we started doing that at a higher frequency, probably about every three weeks. People wanted to get together and that started to gain momentum and more people came into that group. Um, so I think it was definitely pent up. People wanted that human connection. Um, the other thing that I think suffered during, during isolation and COVID, but then was [00:17:00] turbocharged afterwards, is.

There's a real, there has been for a little over 10 years, you know, a real trend in what's called, uh, you know, sort of neo tribalism. You know, people wanna find people who

Morgan: yeah.

John: Have the same interests and, and kind of are in the same place, have a, have, have more in common. Right. Um, and that really got, um, there was a pent up demand for that, uh, with, uh, post isolation.

Morgan: Yeah. I remember as people started performing again, it seemed like every show I went to, the performers at some point started crying.

John: Oh, yeah. Because

Morgan: they, they were like, man, I missed this. This is what we do this for. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

John: And the audience too. I would, I, I, I, oh yeah. But just that there is something very, um, very fundamental in our human experience about communicating through music.

Um, uh, I think, you know, obviously verbal [00:18:00] was sort of the, the next step after probably in our evolution. Um, and I think you, when you saw that human need, like you talk about starting a podcast, I mean, how many were started during COVID because Yeah. Yeah. Was this easy way to, to get connected and stay connected with people and, and have those conversations?

Um,

Morgan: yeah,

John: so I, I, I, uh. I think it's just a drive that no matter what we have, you know?

Morgan: Yeah. I mean, I think so that's why I started this podcast. That's why I've kept it going, you know, I did not know you before this, uh, before, before COVID, or before I started the podcast, and yet here we are having connecting conversation.

John: Yeah. Stress, you know, creativity comes from restrictions and mm-hmm. Constrictions, right? Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Good for you for storing it and hanging in there. I mean, a lot of people ditched them right afterwards, so, yeah.

Morgan: Good

John: for you.

Morgan: Thanks. Um, [00:19:00] so let's, who, who is, who is Sound Union? You know, who, who comes in, who are these people?

You did your market research, you, you brought people into the studio, um, who comes in the door now?

John: Yeah, another great question. Um, and, and Sound Union really is the, the community. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll just acknowledge that when I thought of the idea, I thought, oh, you know, it's kinda like build it and they will come.

But I, I probably always in my business plan emphasized that great equipment, great space, great environment, yada, yada. But it really is the community. I have everybody from 20 somethings, you know, mid twenties to to mid seventies. Um, we have about 40% women in the group or in the community. Um, and they, the one common thread is everybody puts music as a key activity in their [00:20:00] life.

Not everybody's super accomplished, super wealthy or anything like that. They're, the economic ranges are from, like I said, 20 somethings just starting out in their careers. Uh, busy moms who. Decide that, uh, you know, they can spend a, they wanna spend a mm-hmm. Few hours a month doing music with people, that's their release.

Mm-hmm. And I would like to say around here, uh, self care is not selfish. Yeah. For men or women. Um, and, uh, it, the, so it's, it's one, the common thing of, of it's a priority in their, in their life. And, and the community is very. Is is growing to very aware. I think there's this real DNA in the community of like, music.

It should be a joy. And, um, there's not, there's always an opportunity to lift somebody up. In a, in a music session or, you know, studio session we call 'em, which are, most people would say jam sessions, but we kind of structure 'em a little bit [00:21:00] more. There's always somebody you can lift up and there's always somebody who can lift you up.

And if you take those opportunities, we try to cultivate that in, in the community. This should be a place of joy. It shouldn't be a place of frustration like, I have to get the lick.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

John: Right. Otherwise I'm a failure kind of a thing. Um, I mean, we do have those people, we have people who are, who are perfectionists, um, but they're given permission.

To explore,

Morgan: um, yeah,

John: and, and get to whatever level of perfection they want. But, um, you know, we try to encourage people. I mean, we like to say, um, and promote within the community that we're not the only place our members play music. Uh, a lot of 'em gig, a lot of 'em have their own studios at home. Um, but we wanna be their favorite place.

So what do we do as a staff to create an environment where, um, we're the favorite place to play?

Morgan: Man, I love that. I've had a lot of guests on here who we, we've, I've had some pretty incredible raw conversations about [00:22:00] perfectionism and the, um, how as a musician, you, you feel so strongly that you want this to be so amazing and perfect, but we are not perfect.

That's a challenge that a lot of people face and I really love the de-emphasis on that I think is important and healthy for people.

John: Yeah, we still make room for it. 'cause there, there are you talking about sort of, again, range of people? Mm-hmm. There are, you know, all, all sorts of psychographics that are represented in, we have a, we have, we're grateful to have a pretty large membership and still growing.

Um, and there are some who, that is their motivation for music. They want to have, they want to hit those licks. They want to hit, you know, things perfectly before they can. Then go on to explore how else, you know, they have to perfect it before they can take it a little bit farther. And I, I find myself, because I am, while I [00:23:00] am a bit of a perfectionist in certain things, um, I grew up playing jazz, so music to mm-hmm.

I've played with guys and, and, and, well mostly guys who were the ones who were like. Dude, play it just like the record Exactly. Every time. And, and I don't play with those people very long 'cause it's kind of not fun, you know? Yeah. They're definitely things you have to get. If you're gonna play Stevie Wonders, I wish, as a bassist you better know how to play that part.

You can't jazz it up. Um, but, um, there is always room for. Yeah, some sweetness and, and I try not to, I feel like basis

Morgan: the groove comes above all else, and I feel like a lot of us classical people could really take something from that.

John: Yeah, that's a very, yeah. So, so there, it's a good contrast, right? I mean, classical, especially in a, in a symphony or a symphonic.

Setting as a percussionist or a basis. Yeah, you're definitely playing the part. There's not a lot you, you, that's, you don't improvise. That's what you're hired for. Yeah. That's what you're hired for. [00:24:00] Cover bands I think are allowed a little bit of, uh, should have a little bit of fun and a little bit of latitude.

Uh, but I do find myself putting a cap on that point of view sometimes. Mm-hmm. And, and going into the, um, acceptance and encouragement mode when members wanna. I can see them coming in and just working on something to perfect it. And, and I've, I've maybe, I've come to realize that's one of the ways they do find joy.

Yeah. Where I, where I would find frustration. They actually do find joy in that perfection. And I've, and I've learned that, um, about, you know, not, not everyone approaches music the exact same way, but they can still get joy and get those, those endorphins out of it. And, and so we try to support that and encourage that.

Morgan: Yeah.

 This conversation was so interesting because I think in certain circles there's kind of a pride and a romanticism in the grunge aspect of playing certain kinds of music. [00:25:00] Garage bands are basically an entire genre, but eventually, I would say hopefully, yeah, some of us do end up raising our standards as we get older.

Maybe we don't need to couch surf anymore and can get a hotel with a real bed. A moment for me was being able to go to the grocery store and just buy food without that tally running through my head of how much each item is adding to my bill

and also, hello. There's supposedly a loneliness epidemic going on. If I knew there was a place I could walk in the door and have this shared interest with everyone in there, play music with them, talk shop, or even just drink a beer and shoot the breeze, not gonna lie. That sounds appealing.

If you're enjoying this conversation, please take a moment to like Zeitgeist Radio on Facebook or Instagram, or if you're really loving it, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website@zeitgeistacademy.com slash radio. Now back to John.

let's shift gears a little. Let's talk about creativity. Um, on your website, you mentioned a connect, [00:26:00] uh, relationship between creativity and connection.

Um, can you talk a little bit about your, how you see that connection between creativity?

John: And community. And

Morgan: community.

John: Yeah. Um, and thanks. That's a good question to ask. I think it is also one of our key differentiators. I, I do feel that since Tom and I come from the advertising industry and, and you know, enjoyed some success there, you learn to succeed in advertising.

I mean, there, there's the old collaboration thing of Yes and right where it's, um. It's, it's, it is collaborative. You gotta take people's ideas in and go, okay, how do I build on that? And if it doesn't need, if it, there's not quite a way to build on it, then suggest something that, that goes, you know, better.

Right. Um, and being open to, to that. And then as in my career as a creative director, [00:27:00] uh, I had a really good mentor early on, um, who was just a. Icon in the industry who, who told me, look man, now that you're leading a team, I had a team about 20 at the time. He said, it's not about your idea. He said, you, your job is to create an environment where your team can do the best work of their career.

So how do you help them do that? That was a piece of business advice that just went straight into my brain and stuck. There are a lot of things that went in that never stuck, but that one stuck and I really. Um, I, I think my team would tell you we, we, we were doing that. We tried to do that. Um, so I try to do that here and that encouragement of creativity.

We're all born creative. The creative gets beaten out of us, um, in, in socialization in, you know, some respect school, but I won't blame school for it. It's the. [00:28:00] You, you stop that freedom of expression when you start worrying about what other people are thinking, right? And as you, as you grow up and become part of a community, that becomes a piece of it.

Um, so what we try to do is, is as creatives and I had a really good career of doing this, is say, it doesn't matter, right? Yeah. Explore your, if you're a writer, write down the bones, just. Write down what you're thinking and then go back and see what works and what doesn't. If you're an art director or a designer, explore and, and creating, being good at creating space for that and permission to fail, um, I think has set, that's what we bring here.

And I don't, I don't know if I had been an accountant or if I had been. Um, a medical researcher or something like that. And not, not to say anything bad about those people, but being in a business where every day you have to figure out how to foster creativity, [00:29:00] I think that gave us a foundation that we brought into this musical space that is, uh, just built into the walls, built into everything we do built into our staff.

Um, and I think it does make our culture unique, um, and. I think it's gonna be part of, part of our success. It it makes us, you know, that space that people want to come to and explore and because it's really vulnerable, you know? Right. Yeah. You want, even when you have sheet music in front of you, you're, you can't hide the sound you're making.

Yeah. Especially when you're singing.

Morgan: Yep.

John: Uh, and you gotta be good at creating a safe space for that to happen. Um, whether it's any, any. Any step in the process, right? From the writing to the, all the way to the performing.

Morgan: So how do you address when people are, 'cause the, the fear comes from the judgment of other people.

Yeah. So you're talking about creativity coming from the other people, but [00:30:00] there's also kind of that element of fear. 'cause oh crap, now I'm in front of you and you're asking me to generate. And what if you don't like it? And what if, what if, what if, how do you, how do you address that?

John: That's a really tough question to answer 'cause you have to address it with physical and social cues. You know, you can say to people, and we do, whenever we give tours or people sign up and in the first session, this is an open arm session. Um, what we do here is, is just do what you want to do. Do what? Do what you can do.

Like we had a, we have a session every week that's a cover band session. It's not about. Again, just being a karaoke version of the thing. But we encourage people to explore, um, verbally we say this, Hey, this is room for exploration. But everybody does. I don't, I don't care how long you've played. I still, I walk into a room, I had a session with, um, a new [00:31:00] guy's, really an accomplished guitar player.

And I went in nervous going like, oh man, am I gonna,

Morgan: yeah.

John: Think it or what? And you know, I. So we all feel that, uh, you could be a really good, I've heard from real professionals. I mean, uh, people on tour, you know, bands we'd recognize, they get nervous and because it, it now you're, no matter what, you're vulnerable.

So we just try to address it by saying, look, we don't care if it's the first time you step up to the mic or the thousandth time, you're a musician here, or you pick up a guitar for the first time. And by verbalizing that, I think it does lower the barrier a little bit. Then when you have a room, I mean, we can get nine, 10 people into a session.

Our rooms are big enough that you have a few of those people in the room, especially the session leader encouraging. It just takes a little bit of that. Um, and, and people see, oh yeah, the water's fine. And I, I don't have to be perfect. And, and we can all still have fun. And, [00:32:00] and when you're playing. There's that natural tendency when somebody does something, eyebrows get raised and they go, yeah, you know, it's fun, right?

Mm-hmm. So you get that immediate reinforcement that is okay, this is gonna be fine. Um,

Morgan: yeah, I've run some classes here, the Zeitgeist Academy. Um, and it's funny, a lot of people who are not familiar with. Musicians. Um, when I've talked to, like, for example, various business communities I've been part of through the years.

Oh, you work with musicians? Oh. Talk about, you know, talking about the marketing. You what, getting the, the message out, oh, well, you know, your, your ego this, and you'll be this and you'll be that. And I'm like, you clearly don't know musicians at all because I think a lot of us have ego, but it's the opposite where it's like the shadow side of ego.

Yeah, where we see everyone else as so much like everyone else shining, like, [00:33:00] they're so great, they're so great, they're so great, and we just ignore ourselves in all of that. And it makes it very, I think that's where a lot of the nervousness and the perfectionism come from is, is comparing ourselves, the ego is the comparison to others.

But it's the opposite. You know, a lot of musicians don't have, some musicians have egos, but I'd say 99% of the type of people that, that, you know, you're talking about, and, um, people who, even people who make money and and are professionals, I, I would still say there's a kind of this shadow side where, um, they're afraid to.

Shine. 'cause they don't feel like they can.

John: Yeah. I mean, you can be Adele, right? She's famous.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: Oh, you got stage fright. Yeah. It's like, are you, because no matter

Morgan: how, I think the, the more you play, not even the better you get. Just the more you play, the more you see what other people are doing. And, and there's just so many amazing people out there and it's hard to think maybe I'm one of those two.

John: Yeah. It, it, it is. We don't want [00:34:00] to, right. Yeah. We kind of don't wanna feel that way. And I think. And I don't know if there, I wouldn't say there's a general psychographic of, of a musician.

Morgan: Right. But,

John: um, you're right, there are very few front people. Band can't have more than one front an orchestra. It doesn't work.

Have more than one conductor. Right? Right. So, so the social structure that comes with being a musician, um, kind of fosters. Foster's a little bit a, the co, the C collaboration. Um, but it also, like I said, if, if it's you're creating relationships through music and you're vulnerable and you can easily look over somebody else and go, oh my God, they were, I mean, I was in a session the other night with, uh, a new member who, who jumped in and was playing bass.

So much better than me. And I'm so jealous. I'm like, not, and not in a bad way. I'm like, yeah, [00:35:00] I'm gonna steal that lick. She, she did, she was awesome. And then she jumped over on guitar and it's like, do you wanna put, get up to the mic and sing? She goes, no, I don't sing. I'm like, all right. At least you'll keys, bass drums or, uh, keys, bassing guitar.

Um, but I think, I mean, there is the front person ego.

Morgan: Yeah. Right.

John: And uh, and. No matter what there are, I think sometimes people under pressure. That's when a little bit of diva comes out.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

John: And, and I don't mean that in a derogatory or bad way, but the, the nervous knit nervousness. Yeah, I'm a soprano. I

Morgan: love me a good diva

John: a certain way, or I need this, or that.

I need, but that

Morgan: can also be just an act, you know, you can be feeling.

John: I think it's an, uh, I think it's a, it's a, uh, manifestation of nervousness if you ask me. I think

Morgan: so. And in some industries it's required like, to be successful. Like in the opera world, if you're not a diva, you, you get looked over.

John: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Same thing. Pick [00:36:00] any business. I'll, I'll go back to advertising. Yeah. The, oh, sure. The super successful people that I knew in, in advertising were, they were front people. They were like, if you wanna draw a parallel to a band, they were the band. And, uh. And you know, get success. Do you

Morgan: think they actually were or do you think they developed the a face for it?

I'm always curious. I think some people maybe are like that, but I think some people may have a face that they put on over top of,

John: it might be a little, there might be multiple cases. There might be those who armor. That's the armor they put on.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: Um, and there are those I know certainly. That became successful when they started acting that way.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: So it was like, they're loud,

Morgan: they're shiny, they're allowed, they get attention,

John: reinforce their personality, you know, their, their personality traits that worked, that were sociable, that were, and um, and then get elevated. So yeah, that kind of is a self feeding, you know, feedback loop. Um,

Morgan: do you think there's people who are like that outside and then in [00:37:00] Sound Union they can relax and let that face off?

John: Um, well, most of the time I only see them inside.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: Uh, those that I do know inside and out, you, my, I what is that from Severance? The Nies and the Audis, uh, are pretty much same. Right? Exactly. Yeah. They're pretty much the same. I, I mean, I do have, you know, high level CEOs, uh, you know, business owners that come in here to escape.

Um, and, and in talking with them, I know you, you've got 200 people at work that are. That needs something from you. You have your family at home that deservedly needs and wants something from you, and they come here with none of that and, and they can just like, let the pressure off, play guitar or piano or sing or whatever, have a bourbon, have a soda, whatever.

And, um, I, I think maybe it's not a different personality, but it's just, uh, a little bit of taking [00:38:00] off the armor probably. Yeah.

Morgan: Yeah. Are there any particular stories of your years with your community that you found inspiring?

John: I, there there's two that I love to tell. One is, um, the magic that happens when you bring strangers into a room and play music and three hours later everybody's hugging goodbye.

Literally, this happens. All the time, multiple times a week. Um, where else can we get that? Where in three hours you make a connection that's, that's healthy, that's reinforcing, that's has all these great other social and psychological benefits that you go, when are we gonna do this again? You know? Uh, and that is also one of those things that completely removes those barriers of vulner, you know?

Right. Okay. Uh, the [00:39:00] water's fine. That happens all the time. Another one. Um, and, and then maybe this ties in a little bit of like the, just the culture, um, that is growing up around here. One of our first showcases, we, we put on at least every quarter, if not a little more frequently, you know, mother's Day, father's Day, new Year's, uh, holidays, Valentine's, um, concerts and, and one of our first ones we had on stage, um, guy who.

Played jazz guitar for 40 plus years, but an absolute virtuoso sweetheart of a man. Um, we had a drummer who is a music producer, uh, super accomplished Grammy nominated, um, writes for for TV and movies and video games, but loves to play. That's how he recharges. Um. Various other players. And then we had vocalists, someone who'd been singing for 30 years and [00:40:00] two others who had never sung apel before ever.

And nobody was, nobody on, on the stage was like, oh, I don't. I don't play with them three. You know, they weren't, there was none of that. It was just like, yes, let's, let's elevate and have fun and every, you know, it was, it was a blast and I don't know where else that can happen, you know? Again.

Morgan: Yeah. And

John: kind of create a community that accepts people, like I said, from the first time you pick up an instrument to the millionth time.

Morgan: So in your, in these showcases, in the studio sessions, um, let's talk about genre. How do you choose what you're gonna play? And, um, what if it's a, a jazz jam and I come in as a rock guitarist, what happens to me? Yeah.

John: Um, that's a, something we had to learn. It's a little bit of our not so secret sauce, but, um, I, I don't mind sharing that we.[00:41:00] 

We learned early on to identify and structure. That's why we call 'em Sessions Not Jams. Um mm-hmm. So we have country, we have heavy rock, we have covers called Three Chord covers. Uh, we have freeform jazz, uh, or fusion, uh, that, that so freeform. It doesn't really get a name. Um, but we, we structure the sessions, communicate brand them.

So that people know coming in, okay, this is gonna be about modern country.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

John: Um, even to that degree. Um, or this is gonna be about just how many distortion pedals can we use and how, you know, how much rock can we get out of it. Um, so by setting up those, the character and offering, you know, some variety, uh, people.

Sign up for their favorite. Uh, and they do experiment. They'll jump over and say, well, what's going on? Especially if there are a couple [00:42:00] sessions going on at the same time. Um, and they appeal to different levels of, of, uh, capability, right? Mm-hmm. So. We, we specifically designed our, our three chord Thursdays to be, you know, as many songs as we can.

They only have three chords, and there's tons of 'em as we know. Uh, and then of course you can throw in an extra, in a bridge or something like that. But that, that's not only easy and fun for beginning, even intermediate players. Um, uh, the advanced players love it because it's, you can ex, you can jump onto a different instrument.

Play it. Yeah. Um, I've jumped off a bass and picked up a guitar. I mean, you would think playing music for so long, I would know how to play guitar, but I, I really like the bass. Right. But I can do a c, a G and a D, you know? Yeah. I can play along. Um. So, so that's how we create these [00:43:00] sessions and set an expectation.

And then other, other sessions like our, our freeform, jazz fusion improvisation, that'll attract people who are super comfortable can play by ear.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: No charts on the wall, nothing, just right. The drummer might start a groove and everybody creates something. The bass player could start a groove.

Everybody, anybody in the room could start something.

Morgan: Yeah.

John: Um, and, um. Vocalists too. We get a lot of vocalists, uh, that come in and explore everything from scat. Do they bring in poetry and sing it or other lyrics from other songs to whatever's happening in there. So, um, you know, we have, we have those different flavors you can order.

Morgan: Can people come watch?

John: Yes. We have a, we have a social, uh, membership that, um, our musician members can come anytime We're open. We open at 10:00 AM close at 11:00 PM. Um, the social members can come in after five. Again, same, same. They can sit in studios. We have couches [00:44:00] in the studios. Doors are open. Yeah, because like

Morgan: the, the, the jazz one, like, I just think that would be amazing to just watch.

Like, I, I wouldn't know the first, I wouldn't feel comfortable stepping on that stage one bit, but it would be so cool to just sit and see what, what other people do in scenes that aren't mine.

John: Yeah. You, you might be surprised. You might be surprised. You said you play what? Violin?

Morgan: Uh, piano. NIC. Yeah, yeah,

John: yeah.

Piano and singing is like, it is a magical experience, uh, because you don't have to, you're not singing to a chart. You're just making Yeah. Stuff

Morgan: up,

John: you know? There's a lot of just scat and, uh, it is, yeah. And same thing with the, the piano. Uh, it is fun to listen to when I, when I, when they. I don't participate in those.

It's one of my favorite things to listen to, just the amazing things that happen. So yeah, there's, there's that, call it, we used to call it the audience. I don't think that's as accurate. Right. Um, because people do come and more just [00:45:00] socialize those kinds of members. They just can't, uh, they're just not musicians.

Um, and everybody loves an audience.

Morgan: You mentioned at the beginning of this conversation that you may not get to participate as much, but it does sound like you do participate.

What do you personally, what's your relationship with your business? Almost on the customer side? What do you get out of Sound Union?

John: Uh, I. Not just playing music. Um, I, I'll say in, in, in running this business and seeing it now, helping it grow, managing, now it's more about a team helping it grow. I mean, this, this stopped being my idea, you know, uh, a while back, as soon as people started becoming members and I started hiring staff, it, it's just made its own.

We, we've curated it, but

Morgan: mm-hmm.

John: I get out of, um. I, I do. I'm still, again, it's a funny frustration, but I, I embrace the frustration of, you know, again, the bartender doesn't [00:46:00] get a drink.

Morgan: Right? Right. Just

John: want people to enjoy themselves. Uh, and, and I'm an outward, for the most part, I'm an outward person. Um, I think that's another thing that makes us as a business unique.

We've, we've. Found people to staff. Uh, Tom and I are both, you know, especially in, again, coming out of the ad business, you have to be an outwardly focused person, not mm-hmm. Focused one. Um, so it's fun. I do get a ton of enjoyment seeing people come in and play. I absolutely fires me up when I see the evolution of a shy person.

Who comes in looking for a place to play and looking for a community to join. Um, and months later they walk through the door and because they're a regular in whatever kind of session, they're like, oh my God, Morgan's here. You know? And it is [00:47:00] absolutely, it changes. Changes my life to see that. Uh,

Morgan: yeah.

John: I'm lucky in that that's what your dream was.

Yeah. Yeah. It, it really is part of that, and, and lucky to get to have a business that does that. Um, especially after, you know, decades of building other people's brands and selling widgets and consumer tech and high tech. It's fun to see the, the effect that, that this kind of club has on, on folks, that, that more than I would say the music.

Honestly, at this point drives me

Morgan: amazing. So set the scene for me. Um, I walk into Sound Union. What's going on? What are, what do I see?

John: You walk in, you see a really cool space. Immediately you, uh, pull out your iPhone. If, if the concierge is gonna look at you and say, hi Morgan, good to see you again. And if you have a reservation, they're gonna say You're in Studio three in a few minutes.

What do you need? Can I get you a drink? Can I. Carry [00:48:00] your, you know, instrument for you. Um, sign in is seamless. We have, we have members sign in and out, uh, just so we know kind of what our capacity is and things like that. But you experience, it'd be like walking into, I hope, the lobby of like a five star hotel.

It's, everybody knows your name. We know why you're here. We know what you like. Um. You immediately see other people that you know and have built relationships with, uh, and you have a little time, most likely before you step into the studio, you know, step up to the bar, we have snacks and evenings we'll have treats and, um, somebody behind the bar pouring you something.

Um. Socialization, figuring out, all right, what's gonna happen tonight? What are we gonna do when we go into three chord Thursdays? And, and the, the session leader will be in that mix. And, uh, the studios are all set up for [00:49:00] you. You didn't have to bring anything. Um, as a keyboardist, we have, we have several keyboards, so you may want to say, Hey, can I get the Nord stage four in here tonight?

Mm-hmm. And concierge. Absolutely. And, and, uh. Even if you're not joining a regular session and you have signed up to bring friends into play, or you're gonna come in for a personal, you know, um, recording or rehearsal session, we will know that as you reserve our members say, look, I need a mic, I need a keyboard.

I need, you know, X, Y, and Z. That's all ready for you. So all you have to do is, is walk in the room and sit down in a super comfy studio. And start playing. Um, take breaks whenever you want. We have nice, clean bathrooms, which is another unique my experience of music, uh, music spaces. Um, some nights you'll come in and there'll be a performance [00:50:00] going on upstairs.

Some of our, when our, we have three studios and we have a stage and. Many times during the month. They're all, all those are booked. People wanna rehearse their stage performance before they go and play at a club or, or play at some of the small venues around here. So we have a sound engineer always on staff to help people set up and help the bands work out whatever they need on stage.

Using our equipment. It's all set up all the time. We'll, you know, add mics and things like that. But the amps, the back line is all there. So we make it kind of easy. On some days you can walk in, you may not wanna play music, but you need a space to work. And we have a really cool co-work space with, uh, you know, sort of an open co-work space and, and you take your coffee breaks in the studio.

Um, so we're, we're really trying to be, create that experience of just come, relax, pursue music. Hide if you want a little [00:51:00] while. Get some work done, maybe, you know. Yeah. No judgment.

Morgan: Um. And if I'm walking into Sound Union, are there any, what, what are some things that you notice that like, so, so actually let's flip this around.

When you walk into Sound Union, what do you notice?

John: I, I, I cannot answer that on recording device. I'm a, uh. I, I, when it comes to this, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so you are

Morgan: a perfection. I knew it was in there somewhere.

John: I see all the things we need to improve. Yeah. And I, and I immediately tell myself, all right, sandwich that.

There's some good stuff. Then there's that and then endless Good stuff.

Morgan: Yeah. Amazing. Well, I, um, I, as we, I always have one last question I ask every guest this, um, do you know what the word zeitgeist means?

John: Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Morgan: So you can look at it [00:52:00] broadly in, in broad cultural terms or in kind of micro cultural terms, which I have anthropology training.

It's my, my degree in college, um, anthropology and music. Um, so I am. I have this, this phrase I've coined zeitgeist moment when in the context of this podcast, it's, it's musical, it doesn't have to be, but um, basically that moment where you're making music, listening to music, whatever, and you just plug something, just clicks and you're part of something bigger than yourself.

Um, so I will ask you what is either a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment for you? And while you're thinking about it, I'll share one. I was thinking in preparation for this conversation, I was just thinking about community and where in my life I've experienced the most, like the, just the strongest sense of community.

Obviously in music there's so much, um, [00:53:00] but I think that. The, uh, the space that has held the most community for me in my life is the, the lobby of my music department in college. Um, which is kind of how I, I have not been to Sound Union, but I'm kind of picturing that in the same sense where, um, I, I rem I just have me, I have memories of walking in and you've got my friend Andrew on, um.

On base playing haikus, just like noodling around. We've got Ben over there playing flamenco and they're like going back and forth. You've got all the choir people waiting for rehearsal. Uh, maybe a little corner over in, you know, on the side of, of people, uh, trying out some barbershop or, or whatever. Got people talking about history or whatever it was that they were learning about that inspired them, and just the feeling of walking into that.

That lobby before we all went off to our respective ensemble practice. Um, that's [00:54:00] why I'm a, that was, I, I actually wasn't a music major, but that kept me coming back and coming Eventually I was like, well, I have the credit so I might as well get the degree. 'cause I just couldn't let go of that feeling and walking into that lobby and seeing all these amazing people and being part of them and, and being, you know, seeing.

It was, it was just really incredible for me, that sense of connection. Um, regardless of what type of music we were playing, we all kind of knew what we were there for, and that was a really special sense of connection for me. So I would love to hear from you what was a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment for you

John: that that is, that's a wonderful example.

Um. And, and I won't, but I can go on about how my experience at at UCLA as a, as a psychobiology major, but playing music had a very similar kind of thing. I didn't end up building a degree in music, but that space I. Did inspire that moment.

Morgan: Yeah. Is

John: [00:55:00] part of the inspiration of here. I, I had a very, very similar experience and it was kind of like the last really clean, cool place to play music.

Yeah. Because once you graduate,

Morgan: yeah.

John: Uh, I, I would say I did have a, I did have a moment recently. We have, um, we had an opportunity to celebrate the life of someone, uh, in the gaming industry who'd passed away suddenly industry and. Um, one of his dearest friends is, is a member and, and, and had asked Can we have, he really loved music.

He loved the band. And this guy is in a super great, I mean, he's in a number of bands, but really great player. Um, and he said, and he really liked this band that I was in, and I'd like to bring the band back together and, and have a celebration of life for this guy. And it. It was everything rolled into one.

[00:56:00] The, the, you know, emotion of connection. 'cause it was a super, this guy just had a, I didn't know him, but

Morgan: mm-hmm.

John: Clearly we had 200 people here, a hundred fifty, a hundred seventy five, maybe 200 is a little stretch. 175 or so. But it's still, they were all like, you could tell deeply connected to this man.

And that music was the thing that. Became, you know, there was a concert after the, the memorial, you know, the, the, the reflections and the food and all also, and it connected people even more so, which you, you almost couldn't imagine. And it was like, that was one of, I would say, so far, the best use of this space.

Mm-hmm. It rolled everything together. Human connection, love of music, catharsis of music, the joy of music. Um, and, uh. Yeah, I, I, uh, I was standing on the wall with, with one of my partners and, and [00:57:00] we had that look of like, oh my God, this is more than we ever imagined. Yeah.

Morgan: Amazing. That's beautiful. Well, John, thank you so much for being on my podcast.

John: Thank you for having me on. I, I, I love the story. I love the approach that you're, you, you have, and, uh, yeah. It, it was a complete pleasure.

 Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio, and thanks to John Avilla for joining me. All of his links are in the episode description. Please check him out and give Sound Union a follow. Please follow me too at Zeitgeist Academy on Facebook and Instagram. I also have a YouTube channel that is just this podcast, but it is another place you can follow me and don't hesitate to reach out with the zeitgeist moment of your own.

I always love to hear from fellow music lovers. Thanks for listening.