Choral composing
Morgan: I feel like singers experience music a little differently than instrumentalists. Our body is the instrument. We are literally the vibrating piece that makes the sound. So when you tell someone they don't sound good singing, which hopefully you never do, it's a really personal rejection. What else is really personal?
Composing. When you write music, you're sharing your philosophy, the whole way you see the world. If someone doesn't like your composition, that's like a whole philosophical rejection. The times I've written music and shared it with people have been some of the times I've felt the most vulnerable. Today, I'm speaking with someone who is in both buckets, so in my mind, she's one of the bravest people out there.
Welcome to Zeitgeist Radio. I'm Morgan Roe. Today, I'm speaking with a composer who writes commissions for choirs and sings in them herself
My guest today is Dr. Meredith Brammeier, a composer and professor at California Polytechnic University in San Luis Obispo, California. Meredith, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.
Meredith Brammeier: you. And thank you so much for having me
Morgan: I'm excited. I've been wanting to have you on for a while, and you've had so many big projects, and we're finally connecting, and this is very exciting for me
Meredith Brammeier: I know it has been a while we've been talking about this, right?
Morgan: Yeah. Well, and I'm a singer, right? So this podcast is I talk with all sorts of people who do cool things with music, but this is, like, my backyard, you know? This is the subculture I participate in, so, And I have all these questions that are, like, kind of self-serving. So, I was writing the... This interview came together very easily for me.
Meredith Brammeier: Good
Morgan: but first I'd love to hear from you in your own words, who are you musically?
Meredith Brammeier: Okay. I am a composer, I'm also a singer. We've sung together in several several ensembles. I am a pianist. I started my musical career actually as a pianist. And I played piano very seriously from, the time I started lessons when I was in, I don't know, kindergarten or first grade through high school. And then went in a different direction in college. I'm also-- I do some conducting. I conduct my pieces when various ensembles have performed them but mainly the choral ensembles that perform my pieces. And if it's a, a group that I sing in, I've been invited to, to conduct that has happened sometimes. other times I'm just a singer and I get to sing my own pieces with another conductor, and that's fun as well. And then, yeah, as referenced by my job, I am a teacher. I have been teaching at Cal Poly since 2001. and so I have been teaching music theory, musicianship, which is also known as aural skills and some composition counterpoint classes. And every once in a while, I do conduct a choir there as well. I will be conducting the Cantabile there this coming fall because our regular choir director is going to be on sabbatical. So I'm looking forward to that. So yeah, I wear a lot of hats musically I guess I would say.
Morgan: Yeah, you do so many things. We could talk about any of them on this podcast, but we're going to zero in on choral composing. That's one thing that you are very prolific and pretty amazing at, having sung some of your stuff, so
Meredith Brammeier: So Thank you. Thank you
Morgan: Let's start kind of broadly for people,
who are not v- in choir or, or don't have the background.
There's a lot of
types of choral music, a lot of subgenres. Is your specific style and who are your influences?
Meredith Brammeier: My style, I would say I write tonal music, so that is music that has a tonal center or a pitch center. You might think of it as pieces that have a key, although sometimes you can have a tonal center, and it can be pretty chromatic and be moving around a lot into different keys or different kind of pitch cen- centers. But I tend to write music that has some shifting harmonies. And also, I like to use a lot of different kinds of rhythms in my pieces. It's pretty rare to have a piece that is in 4/4, four beats per measure all the way through for my music. So I like to experiment with different kinds of rhythms. And then in terms of influences, I would say in general, I'm influenced by everything I've ever performed. You
Morgan: Sure
Meredith Brammeier: mean, and that seems like a big, thing, but it really is true.
Morgan: history, choral history.
Meredith Brammeier: And things I've performed, I think, more than things I've listened to, although of course, everything you've listened to also is an influence. But when you perform a piece, you're really in the middle of it, and you get to hear it through rehearsals, and gosh, what are the things that are hard to, for the choir to learn or figure out? And then how do certain things come together? And in general though, I would say composers that influence me have been composers like Benjamin Britten, Ralph Vaughan Williams. Aaron Copland was a big influence, especially from my younger years. I really loved Aaron Copland's music and still do. Igor Stravinsky, I think the rhythmic aspects of Igor Stravinsky have been very influential. And then going back a, a longer time ago the music of J.S. Bach. So I was into a Lutheran family, and my mom was a singer, and she also played the organ. And dad is a retired Lutheran minister, so we had Bach chorales, all around us growing up. My mom loved Bach, and so she sang it, played it. My dad who is not a musician but loves to listen to music he just loved, of course, to hear my mom sing. That was one of his, things that he would love to to her, as we all did. And, so Bach kind of counterpoint, the way he set text is, has been a big influence as well. So those would be the, I think the bigger names that, that have influenced me. But really, as I said, all kinds of music. I think the more that you're open to listening to new music, different kinds of music and thinking about how that might fit into your perspective as a composer is is important.
Morgan: That sounds so interesting. Again, thinking of kind of the basics, I'm also using this to give folks a, a, again, non-choral folks a, a crash course in choral music.
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah.
Morgan: a Lu- there's a very strong Lutheran tradition in choir that's kind of a specific,
branch of choral singing. I don't know if you care to touch on that at all, but it's, it's a strong tradition
Meredith Brammeier: It is. And there's a strong tradition also in congregational singing singing
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: harmony. And that does come from the Reformation and Martin Luther wanting the congregation to participate in the worship services.
And so yeah, that's been centuries-long tradition. Yeah.
Morgan: It's, it's been referred to as a lineage, like a, a choral, a choral lineage of the Lutheran singing, yeah. So where, what types of places has your music been pers- performed, whether it's types of ensembles or, or physical locations that you're aware of?
Meredith Brammeier: and that's actually the, that I'm aware of is a good thing too, because sometimes people will buy copies of my music, and I don't know necessarily who they are. You can't track
Morgan: Do you get kinda jitters when that happens though?
Meredith Brammeier: no, actually, it's exciting because I think, here some- someplace, somewhere in the world, my piece is gonna be performed, and,
Morgan: That's so cool
Meredith Brammeier: it's a pretty interesting thought.
Somebody, a group of people I don't know are going to experience this, this music that I wrote. So that's ... It's pretty cool. yeah, I've had, of course, a lot of things performed in the San Luis Obispo area, Performing Arts Center and a, a, several of the churches that host performances, and also churches during church services.
I've ha- I've been commissioned by a number of the churches in the area to write pieces for various celebrations. In the United States also h- just here and there sometimes some, a choir in Colorado did one of my pieces, a choir in Michigan, in Illinois. And s- also I've had some choirs take pieces to New York City, and Carnegie Hall was had a
Morgan: Nye!
Meredith Brammeier: fun, and I was there for that. And also Lincoln Center. And then in Los Angeles, I had a, a band piece, a concert band piece performed in Disney Hall. So that was very cool. I've had pieces performed in Canada, and then quite a few places in Europe. Dublin I en- I entered my, one of my pieces in a call for scores, and a choir in Dublin did that one. I've had pieces
Morgan: Paul
Meredith Brammeier: like, in Vienna in Prague in the Canterbury Cathedral in a couple places in Wales. And so that's been really fun. And for a lot of those, I was able to go 'cause it was, like, a choir on a tour, and I was able to go along with them. And that's been pretty cool. So yeah, I was loo-
Morgan: That's amazing. All over.
Meredith Brammeier: and I was like, "Oh, wow. Oh yeah, that's cool."
Morgan: Do you remember when, like, what was the first piece you ever wrote
like, a serious, like, "I'm gonna actually sit down and write it," regardless of how old you were?
Meredith Brammeier: so the first piece, like the first piece of music or the first sort of choral piece. I could do both.
Morgan: Okay, tell me the difference. Either one.
Meredith Brammeier: so the first piece of music I wrote, or at least the first one I remember writing, was a piano piece, and this is when I was, like, very young, maybe first grade, second grade. And I was learning the piano, and so I wrote a couple of little piano pieces. And so that-- I think that's the first time I remember writing things. I also wrote a musical about dragons when I was, again, probably second grade or something, that it was just for me and my sister, and I made her do it with me.
Morgan: Love that.
Meredith Brammeier: So that was fun. And then but then go through quite a few years because that was when I was really doing serious piano study And so then it was really when I started college that I started doing composition again. And it was in my freshman year, my first-year theory class that,
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: a class that did some composition as part of learning about different forms of music, different types of music. So I wrote a piece for that, that ended up being a choral piece a passacaglia that has a repeated bass. And the, the teacher of the class liked it so much that he had the class sing it together.
Morgan: Cool
Meredith Brammeier: That was really cool. I was like, "Oh." And then so it was a religious piece, so I showed it to my the choir director at my home church, and then he decided to do that for one of the services. So that's probably the first choral composition that I ever had performed. I wasn't even there actually for the performance 'cause I was still at school. But so that that was what-- That's how I remember it.
Morgan: Yeah. Well, that's a pretty great shot in the arm for a freshman,
Meredith Brammeier: it was. It was cool
Morgan: to get s- such a good feedback on your first ever, like, attempt
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah, it was fun. I remem- I do remember that pretty well. "Oh, maybe this is something I really wanna do." And that was
Morgan: Right
Meredith Brammeier: of me thinking, "Oh, this is something that I wanna more. I wanna try it out some more." And grew from there
Morgan: And here you are.
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah.
Morgan: So let's talk about the process after that. So now you're established you're- you've got several works under your belt.
I know getting commission, you've already mentioned that you have had commissions, and
I've
seen you get com- I mean, I think w- one of the choirs we sing in together commissioned a piece from you.
from you. I've
I've had other composers on this podcast, and that's a big hurdle for a lot of modern composers.
how have you navigated this and, and w- how have you navigated those hurdles and then gotten such success with commissions?
Meredith Brammeier: and gotten such success with ? It's, a lot of the success I think is built or is from building relationships with conductors, with other musicians, and I- that's where I've found the most, or that's where I've had the most success I think, because if someone gets to know you a musician as a person, they then can say, "Oh, hey, I'd like to hear some of your music." And then hopefully you have a good recording or two of some of your previous pieces, and then you share those, and they get to know what your style is like, what your music sounds like. And then they might have ... Again, often it's like a, a special celebration, like a fifth anniversary of an ensemble or like for the Slow Master Chorale, I- we d- had a 40th anniversary, and I wrote a, a big piece for choir and orchestra for that. And that does come from really to know people and them getting to know you. So I think probably the hardest thing is when you're getting started, is to get some good performances and some good recordings
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: especially these days, people really wanna hear the music as well as look at a score. and it's easier now than it used to be to make that happen but it still is, I would say, one of the very important things. And and then yeah, growing from there, just trying to out. If you want to do different kinds of music, find some groups that maybe are more interested in certain types of music.
If you have a group that wants to do more kind of avant-garde music, that's might be more difficult than what's perhaps a college choir or a high school choir or a church choir might be able to do. Then you have to look into that. You can also, there are opportunities to like answer call, a call for scores like I did.
I've done that a few times. Or participate in like a music festival of some sort where the end result is a performance of a new piece that you've written. Those are ways to do it as well. So I think- Mainly it's als- it's just always being open to whatever possibilities come your way, and then also putting yourself out there saying, "Okay, I've got this, this these kinds of pieces. Who is out there that might like to perform them?" And actually, that reminds me. So I I've joined a few Facebook groups that are, like, ACDA, the American Choral Directors Association, and sometimes people on there, choir conductors will say, "Hey, I'm looking for pieces that follow this particular theme." They have a concert, and they're doing a particular theme. And so if you happen to have a piece that is on that theme, then you're like, "Oh yeah me."
Morgan: Right, right.
Meredith Brammeier: There might be 50 other composers who also answer, so then you still are negotiating, is it exactly the kind of piece they want with the difficulty level they want and the type of ensemble they have. So having a lot of music available with different themes, honestly, I think that is helpful when you're, especially in, in a choir or when you're a choral composer because there are... they like to do those themes in choir concerts. So
Morgan: Yeah, yeah
Meredith Brammeier: theme, it's like, okay, let's see who's gonna wanna do s- a concert that has this theme. So I've gotten a few performances of pieces that I already had written that way, and that can actually be a harder thing in some ways than having a premiere of a piece. Once a piece is premiered, how do you get it performed again by a different
Morgan: Again.
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah.
Morgan: Sure, sure. Before we get to that you said once you've finished a piece. Do you finish a piece? What's it like putting it... Like, I, I've only worked under a couple, like, like under when we were, were doing your piece, you were making changes last minute, and then some other composers I've worked under, they were making changes last minute.
Like, do you ever consider a piece done?
Meredith Brammeier: you know I would say that there's a certain point where you just have to let it be and say, "Okay, I'm,
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: that one," because you're moving on to other things. Especially when you're having a piece performed for the first time, you've only heard it, you've had it on the computer probably these days.
Usually, you can have the computer play it back, which is nice. But it's different when it's real people playing and, or singing. And what I tend to mess around with might be more like dynamics and temp- tempos, because those are the kinds of things that you can't always tell exactly how it's gonna work in a, in an ensemble, and it depends on the size of the ensemble,
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: singing in. But those are the kinds of things that sometimes when you hear it in person, you say, "Oh, we need to adjust the balance a little bit by doing these various things." I try not to make too many changes in actual pitches, actual, the, and the notes and the rhythms, the pitches and the rhythms. But sometimes, yeah, you're like, maybe this one little thing needs to be tweaked." And so you can make yourself crazy if you just that too much, because at a certain point, then you just need to write a new piece. And
Morgan: Right.
Meredith Brammeier: tell myself, "Okay, I learned something from this piece. I learned something about the way this particular thing I tried to do worked or didn't work, and in the next piece, I'll know that, and I'll be able to do a better job with it." So I think we're always learning as composers. I don't think that there's any I would say, "Okay I know everything about all the instruments and all all voices and everything that I could know about writing any kind of piece," because there's just way too much variety. There are way too many things to consider, and I think we're always learning, which is why it's such an interesting thing to do.
Morgan: Yeah. Do you find your music gets, like, more complex as you go? Or
Meredith Brammeier: That's also a really good question. Honestly, when I was in grad school studying composition, y- you wanted to be experimenting and trying new things, and the word at the time was fresh. You wanted something to be fresh. So you didn't wanna sound like other people's music. You wanted something that would catch people's attention. But it gets hard to do that because so many people are experimenting with so many things. It's like, how do you do something that not, that somebody else hasn't ever tried before? But that also meant that I was trying some things that were challenging rhythmically, pitch-wise. Because also, when you're g- in grad school, you can have, like we had pickup choirs that were other grad students, that were, pretty, pretty talented and were used to reading this new music. I actually think that in a way some of my music has become simpler, but I
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: mean that in kind of a negative way. I mean that in the sense that I'm not trying so hard i- in terms of trying to be noticed or trying to be what other people want me to be. And there is,
Morgan: Right
Meredith Brammeier: that, that feeling also when you're, younger and studying.
You wanna make a name for yourself, but you also wanna, I
Morgan: Break the mold. Be different.
Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: and trying to figure out what is my voice i- as a composer, what do I have to say, and sometimes it can take a little bit of time to do that. And also, I was studying in a time period where atonal music was really important, so music without a key, without a tonal center or a pitch center. And I started my composition studies on the East Coast, which was really entrenched in that idea of atonal music. On the West Coast, not so much, so when I came out here to USC, that was relaxed, and I felt better about it. But, kinda trying to do what we call 12-tone music or serial music where it's very complicated and chromatic and it can be hard for people to listen to if they're not used to that style of music. And so since then... and I experimented with a bunch. I experimented with 12-tone music. I experimented with highly chromatic music. But now I've kinda circled around to, yes, I can use that type of music if it fits the piece that
Morgan: Yeah. It's a tool now
Meredith Brammeier: It's not a requirement.
It's a tool.
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: so I feel like I really can craft my music now to the ensemble that's going to be performing it, and I think I'm better at that than I used to be. That, okay, this is
Morgan: Sure
Meredith Brammeier: that is, maybe it's the Central Coast Youth Chorus. it's a
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: or a college group, and or it's a like I did a, a community band, and within those kinds of ensembles, there is still a wide variety of skill level.
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: do they practice? How often do they perform? There are some, some community groups that are just, they can just do all kinds of things and they might pr- you know, practice more than others in terms of being together. and they, some conductors cast a wide net in terms of the kind of music they do. Other groups might be a little more conservative in terms of the types of music that they do. So you really have to get to know the ensemble that you're writing for, and I've learned that as well over the years.
How to, get to know the ensembles what are the pieces they love to perform. And you don't wanna write something just like those pieces, but you wanna be aware of, what the community
Morgan: Like the s- their strengths. Y- yeah. Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: and what, what appeals to them. And, 'cause if you're gonna do a commissioned piece you want the people that are commi- commissioning the piece to like it. You hope that they
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: doing it. And if it is, and if it happens to be something that, that right from the beginning you think, if I think, "Oh, this is just not gonna be a good fit," hopefully I would recognize that soon and be able to say, "Yeah, the kind of music I write, I, it's just not like the kind of music you perform, so I'm not sure this is a good fit."
Now I've, honestly I've never had to say that. I'm glad I've never had to say that. But that may be just because people know what my music is like, so when they approach me they have a sense that it should be a good fit
Morgan: Yeah. When you write a piece that's not commissioned, do you have a type of group in mind before you write it?
Meredith Brammeier: that is something that, a lot of people might call these passion projects or something when you have a piece that nobody's commissioned, but it's just a, something that you've been thinking about,
Morgan: yeah
Meredith Brammeier: And it's a hard thing to do because if you don't know that somebody's gonna perform it, know, you think,
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: this and spend a lot of time on this, and it's gonna sit in a drawer or sit on the computer or something?"
Mine still sit in drawers 'cause I still start with handwriting. But yes, there are, there have been some pieces where I just have an idea, and I just
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: it down. And sometimes it's just s- like the beginning sketches of a piece, and I may not write the entire piece because I'll say I don't have anyone to perform it at this time, so I will just set it aside, and maybe there will be an opportunity that comes up." Because honestly, I'm at a point where I have enough enough pieces lined up for people that would like me to write them that I could just be doing those for quite a while before, before I got
Morgan: That's,
Meredith Brammeier: you know, something that
Morgan: that's wonderful
Meredith Brammeier: But yeah, there are some pieces that I have done where, oh, you just write what you have in your head and what comes out, and
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: I did a piece like that actually for my in memory of my mother. And it was a piece for six-part treble choir. Two SSA choirs, a double choir soprano, alto soprano, alto. But then it comes together in six parts. And I hadn't-- It wasn't f- a commission for anything.
I just, I wrote it 'cause I was thinking of her, and I wrote the words myself. But then eventually I did get that per- have that performed by our local choir, Canzona Women's Ensemble. And then, but also, that was the one I sent to the Dublin Choir, and so they did the premiere of that in Dublin.
And then I also s shared it with a choir in Nashville. And that was one of those Facebook connections where they were doing the theme of like the journey through life. And so I sent that over there, and they performed that as well. Yes, sometimes you do. Sometimes you just write a piece because
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: write it. But
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: lot of times for me, those are unfinished pieces that then I come back to if I find the right opportunity for it.
I'm taking a quick break here, but keep listening because in the second half of this interview, we talk about how Meredith gets published, her process for writing, and oh my gosh, all the permissions that she needs just to use a poem. Wow.
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Thank you. Now, back to Meredith
Morgan: so let's shift into now that you've had your premiere let's talk about the publishing world. Do you get your pieces published? How do you navigate that part of things?
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah. That's really changed over the
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: since I was s- first starting out because now it's so easy to self-publish, and we have so many tools, that weren't available like in the '90s. And also Publishers, will often want you to be established online as well, because they wanna sell a lot of scores too. So what I do is actually I self-publish everything, I do it through different distribution websites. So I do a lot of it is through which is
Morgan: Okay.
See, I thought they were a publisher. I didn't realize...
Meredith Brammeier: they, they actually are
Morgan: Interesting
Meredith Brammeier: a kind of a distribution system and they... So they will distribute published music.
So let's say, I can't think of a name of maybe Pavane Publishing. So they, th- things that have been published, they will distribute, and you can buy it through JW Pepper. But they also have a s- a section called My Score, is self-published composers. And so you sign up for it, and JW Pepper gets a commission,
Morgan: Of course
Meredith Brammeier: But what they'll do is they will adverti- you know, they'll, they have it on their website. They don't... The advertising not so much, but, they'll have it available on the website, and then sometimes if something's selling really well, they'll be like highlighted as, something to look at. But then if people wanna order paper scores, JW, they'll print it. They'll do all the printing for you, which is really nice. I don't have to
Morgan: Nice. Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: And then a lot of it can be sold as digital scores as well, and they take care of the like, the payments and taxes and all that kind of stuff.
So that's one way that I've been distributing my music. Then there's other similar kinds of things. Sheet Music Plus is another one. then there's a, there's another website called Music Spoke, and that's a little bit more specific because , you can publish your stuff with them only after they've accepted you.
It's... JW Pepper, you just apply and pay a fee, and then you can be on there. But Music Spoke is more selective, and they also will go to like conferences and be promoting promote the, the pe- the people they publish there. And so I actually have just one piece on there, because honestly, I'm not very good at self-promotion because it takes a lot of time, and it even, it takes time to, to get the scores ready, to get them, online.
I have a website that I haven't updated for probably since, 2020 because we all know what happened in 2020. Everything, just d- teaching online and trying to figure out how to do all kinds of other things. And that's one thing that I'm hoping to do more of. I'm moving from full-time teaching to part-time teaching this coming year.
I don't know if I told you that or not. But that's one reason I'm doing that, is to give myself hopefully some time to do some of these things, 'cause I always just wanna be writing the next piece,
Morgan: Right.
Meredith Brammeier: like, "Ugh, I gotta try to, you
Morgan: You don't wanna be on Instagram doing...
Meredith Brammeier: It's like I gotta upload this to my we- g- get all this stuff ready and upload it to JW- JW Pepper or to other places.
And, at that point it's not as fun as actually writing the music. So but that's part of, that's part of what we need to do as composers. I think people that are that do only composing for a living or, that have made a living out of it, they have other people helping them with those aspects of it. But if you're somebody like me that's doing all sorts of different things making making a living, I think that we just have to do it all, and some things are easier than others, or
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: interesting than others
Morgan: Yeah, yeah.
, Let's go through your process. So and you don't have to get into crazy detail, but when someone approaches you saying, "Hey, I'm interested in a commission," and you accept what's, what's like step number one? How do you, how do you approach the project? How how many iterations do you tend to go through?
Do you do read-throughs? What, what do you do to prepare that piece?
Meredith Brammeier: Okay. It can depend on the group in terms of what they're looking for. But usually I will I always talk to the conductor, the person who's or the f- person who first approaches me, and it usually it is the conductor and find out, what is the piece for, when is the performance, what kind of performance is it, and like I said, what kinds of pieces do they do in general. And then for choral music, a big part of it is the text. what kind of text are you looking, d- are they thinking about? It d- is it for a particular theme, or are they open to just about anything? Do they want it to be joyful, rhythmic fast, upbeat kind of piece? Or do they want something that is slower and more th- thought-provoking in terms of, something that is going to be a more introspective kind of piece?
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: and so that also will inform, me a lot in what kind of piece I'm gonna be doing. the texts are also tricky because you have to think about copyright. And if it's a text that's under copyright, you have to make sure that you can get permission to use it before you even
Morgan: Right
Meredith Brammeier: writing the piece, because otherwise you can just, know, be wasting your time if it's a piece that, that you're not gonna be able to have permission to use. And the permissions are actually, not just, you have to have permission to, set the text to music but also to publish it in whatever way it's gonna be published. But then a- you also need permission to distribute it if you want to record it. That's a different permission if you want to distribute it via a recording, So there are actually, it's a kind of a list of permissions you need to get. so that can be really complicated especially if it's a big name poet There are certain, poets that just didn't want their p- their poems set to music, and so you just couldn't get permission to do it until after it into public domain. So now public
Morgan: Wow
Meredith Brammeier: has been, it was set at pieces be- or poems before 1923 for a long time, but now it's been moving up one ev- a new year every January 1st, we get a new year. I don't, I c- can't remember what year we're up to. But so some poems that hadn't been in the public domain have now been slowly coming into the public domain. but it's hard because, of course, as a contemporary composer, you wanna be dealing with contemporary words and contemporary subjects. I found that knowing a poet useful. Knowing
Morgan: Sure
Meredith Brammeier: that's willing to work with you. And also sometimes I write my own words, but rarely, because you wanna make sure that, That the words good words that the poem is well-written. And it's not that I don't have, sort of faith in myself as being able to write, but, poets also get a lot of education about how to put words together in, in different ways. And I think there are lots of different kinds of people that can write poetry and use poetry. And so I have written a few things where I was like, "I really like these words that I've written," and it's worked well. Because then you can, you're doing the music and the words together, you can really craft it in exactly the way you want to. but then sometimes, somebody else's words just really strike you, and it's "Oh, wow, that's a really interesting way of saying this." But that's a big factor when it comes to any kind of vocal music, is figuring out what kind of text you're using and then making sure that you are able to use it.
Morgan: so, so you've found the, the poetry. You've, you've worked it. You've made the piece. You present it to the conductor. Do you get butterflies in your stomach at this point just a little bit?
Meredith Brammeier: Yes. And actually let me come back. You asked about the process too. Yes often or at least sometimes, the, y- you'll ask the conductor, "Do you wanna see it, when I'm partway through it or do you wanna see some of it?" Sometimes they do, and then sometimes they say, "No, I trust you.
Just do what you wanna do." So you again, work with that process. But then, yeah, it you just I always want to, I want to say, "Oh, I just hope you like, I hope they like it." It's like
Morgan: right, right.
Meredith Brammeier: You don't want it to be a big flop and have them say, "Oh my gosh, this is terrible," and, "Oh, why did we ask her to do this?"
And fortunately nobody's said that to me anyway after I've written a piece. I think sometimes it takes a little bit of time get to know a piece because we are used to, at least in the of classical tradition, there's a lot of pieces that people know really well. You
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: and, you
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: Ninth Symphony and people know that.
It's in their ears. It's in commercials. It's in background music, in, it- it... So there are certain things that we've heard so often that it's just "Oh, yeah, that's... Yeah, it's a great piece." But if you've h- if you're hearing something for the first time I think it's a different experience than hearing something that you've heard a lot. So your brain is experiencing these new, different sounds, different way of putting the music together with the words. And so I would say, sometimes it might take people a few listenings
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: through it with their ensemble a few times to start to understand what the piece really is like.
And especially, again, if you're, if it's, if you're the ensemble and it's a brand-new piece and you're just putting it together any brand-new piece that you're just putting together, even if it's a piece from, that you've j- just any piece that you haven't sung together before, is gonna be a little rough at the beginning.
Morgan: Ja,
Meredith Brammeier: for most choirs, it's okay, it's a little rough. So you can't all, y- maybe you have to take it a little slower to get everything to fit together. You might have to go over certain parts 'cause oh my gosh, this is hard, getting this to fit together. So you don't get a sense right away necessarily of what the piece really is going to sound like when it's all rehearsed and ready to go. So but, yeah, in general, I think mainly I just hope that I didn't make any egregious errors. Like, when you're doing pieces for instruments, the thing about getting the transpositions correct always just gives me yeah, it
Morgan: Ja
Meredith Brammeier: palpitations, like And the computer, again, computers are very useful.
They'll do those kinds of things for you, but still, something can go wrong, and it's like you hit it, the wrong thing when you printed it, or there's just so many things that's just oh, my gosh, I hope the, I hope everything's, the trumpets are in the right key and so everything fits together because you just want, you want your music to come off in the best possible way since there are not as many opportunities to have it played a piece
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: for example. So
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: is the fear my gosh, if this doesn't come together, are they ever gonna do, wanna do a piece of mine again?"
Morgan: Right. I was so curious when we were doing your piece and you were singing in the ensemble. I was like, "What?" 'Cause like you said, the first couple read-throughs of any piece are a little rough, and is it just, like, wildly frustrating to be sitting there like, "No, guys, it goes this way. This is the rhythm"
Meredith Brammeier: It can be. It can be. But I think also my having been in ensembles like that makes me
Morgan: You get it.
Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: it goes.
Morgan: Trust the pro- you know the process.
Meredith Brammeier: I think if you don't perform in an ensemble, and you've written this piece, and especially, I think that are so used to working on computers,
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: does it just fine."
Yeah, the computer is a computer and not a human. And when I'm teaching composition, I do have to remind students, okay, if you're writing for human beings, like they have and let's just go with singers. They have a certain range that they can sing in. And yes, there are solo singers, solo sopranos that can, just sing up in the stratosphere,
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: and basses that can sing super low.
But if you're talking about again, a, that a community choir that, But even, professional choirs, you're not gonna wanna have the soprano singing up high Ds. That's just doesn't
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: in a choral sound so much unless it's a single soloist kind
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: And so there are things to consider that you just can't, you just can't count on the computer's rendition to tell you.
Morgan: They'll hit the Heidi every time.
Meredith Brammeier: And so yeah, so being aware that, no, the first read-through is, it might be kind of dicey.
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: to recognize, for me, the thing I'm always asking myself is this just a rehearsal issue, something we need to rehearse, or is it, a what I call a composer problem?
That is, is it something that I've written that just isn't coming together well because of the way I've written it. and I do always find myself asking that question, or is there a w- a way I could've written this where it wouldn't be so h- hard to put together? And just because something is hard to put together doesn't mean that you need to rewrite it.
Sometimes it's just okay, it's
Morgan: Right
Meredith Brammeier: and it's hard to put together, but once you put together, put it- once you put it together, it sounds really cool.
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: wanna just say, "Oh, let me make it easier just because this was hard to put together." But sometimes there's a way that you could maybe notate it differently where it might be easier for the singers to read it and then the rehearsal process would go more, more quickly or more easily. So I do really work on that aspect too. Like the notation. How can I notate this in the clearest way possible so I can get the sounds that I want having to spend a whole lot of rehearsal time kind of decoding what it is that I want? So that's a,
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: important aspect too, I think, of let's spend as much time rehearsing the music instead of decoding the notation
Morgan: Yeah. What's it like turning over... You've lived with this piece, you know every nuance of it,
And
then you turn over that power to the conductor.
what's that like? 'Cause now, now it's up to them to... I mean, unless you're guest conducting, but you don't... They're interpreting it now, and it's not yours anymore.
It's the choir's, and it's the director's
Meredith Brammeier: Yeah. That is that is the interesting thing, again, about performance and live performers, because you do, you really have to give up that control.
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: conductor usually ask for your input, so that's nice. Although if it's somebody, again, across the country, they bought your music and you don't even know who they are, you hope that they read the markings you've put in the music and interpret them the way that you've indicated. But yeah, it- I find that, if I have a good relationship with that conductor they're usually open to comments and suggestions. When I'm in the middle of the rehearsal and I'm one of the singers, I definitely try not to just keep interrupting with, "Oh, could we do it? Could we do that?" Usually I'll wait for a moment when the conductor will actually ask me for some input, because you don't wanna interrupt their process.
Morgan: Right
Meredith Brammeier: conductors have a, they have a plan for rehearsal, and they have a process. and then sometimes, sometimes the first of a piece, you listen to it later and you're like, "Oh, think the next time maybe I would change this tempo a little bit," or, maybe it was a little too slow or or the dynamics weren't quite right. And honestly, it's after I've done or heard a first performance that's when I might go back and say, I think I might change this because that didn't go like I thought it would." Or, " I
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: this dynamic would work better. This tempo would work a little bit better." But you can do that while you're rehearsing and you hear that "Oh my gosh, no, that's too slow," then it is fun if you have time and a willing ensemble to say, "Okay, let's try this a little faster and see what happens." And maybe it's a disaster, but maybe it really works, and you say, "Okay, let's do that now." So ho- honestly, in a, in an ideal situation, you'd have a lab choir where you could just go in and say, " Okay, I'm working on this.
I'm not quite sure how to do this one section. Could you just sing it through and let me hear it? And let's try it a couple of different ways." And then sometimes then you have to decide which way do I really like it best? And it may be, six of one, half a dozen of the other, where, there's one thing you like about one kind of, way of performing it, but then there's another good thing about the other way of doing it.
And then maybe you say, "Okay conductor, you decide."
Morgan: Yeah. Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: the... And that, that comes in with the idea of editing and going back and fixing and changing. Every once in a while, you get a piece and you're like, "Nope, that's it. That's just right." And sometimes I'll be just maybe two measures in a piece where I just say, "It's just not quite right." And maybe I can't put my finger on it at that moment. Usually, though, if I leave it, go on a walk, take a shower, go make dinner, sleep, have a good night's sleep and come back to it, often I'll be able to say, "Oh, okay, now, I think I know how to fix this." And usually when it's right, I can really tell. If I get something like, yeah, that's really how it needs to be. And so yeah, I do think there are pieces where it's like, good. I don't think I would really change anything. but then there are s- there's always a couple pieces where I just think that one little section still isn't quite right. But then you have to know when to just let it go and spend that energy on the next piece.
. ,
Morgan: What's something that you're still figuring out and exploring right now that you're excited about?
Meredith Brammeier: I think one thing I mentioned was the business side of things, like the marketing and getting out there. And so I really am thinking about how can I take all the things I've already written and get them ready to be published and get them into people's hands, because I've had some really, good performances of some new pieces, and I just haven't gotten them out there.
So I'm excited about that, and also about exploring, different pieces for different levels of performers. Like expanding to maybe doing some things for even youth orchestra which I haven't really written much for or maybe adding more instruments to my choral music. And like I said, there's always new things to try and new things to learn.
I just for opportunities and go with whatever's available to me. Yeah.
Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. I, there's no musician who's ever static I've found. There's always something interesting. I love hearing that. Let's kind of rapid fire through a couple questions for that I have for people who aren't familiar w- again, with, with much of the choral world. When a new work is performed what are a few things that you wish audiences would know about new works?
Meredith Brammeier: Again, with much of the choral world, when a new work is performed what are a few things that you wish audiences would know about the work? I think that the first thing to know is that the, the composer really wants you to like their music. Now, that may not, that might be not be true of all composers, but I think of most,
Morgan: It probably is.
Meredith Brammeier: we really, and I say it may be a challenging piece.
It may not be a, what you'd call traditionally a beautiful piece. It may be something that makes you think makes you emotional, but that it affects you in some way. And then also, the first performance of a piece not always going to be exactly what the composer imagined it would be, because it is
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: and,
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: it may have still have some bugs to work out, some, some things to work out.
But really, we're just glad that you have the opportunity to listen, and we're
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: to listening, and we-we're happy to talk to you about the piece afterwards if you have questions about it. I think that's a great thing about having a live, composer there. you can ask me questions and say, "Tell me what you liked about it.
Tell me what you didn't understand," and we can have a dialogue, and that always is helpful, I think to find out, what does our audience think about this piece?
Morgan: Yeah. And that's probably helpful to hear 'cause I think people can be intimidated, like, "Oh, that's the composer," like, you know,
so fancy.
Meredith Brammeier: talk to people and kinda get
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: yeah
Morgan: Yeah. So okay, next, what about conductors? What do you wish conductors, when they're approaching their programming what do you wish they knew about new works?
Meredith Brammeier: I would like them to know that we're excited share our music with them, with their ensembles, and that, again, we like to make that, that relationship happen with the conductor and also with the ensemble. That to me it's about building community within the music world, and then with our audiences.
That,
Morgan: Mm-hmm
Meredith Brammeier: wanna share the way we're experiencing the world, and that to a composer is through our music
Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, I like that answer. And then for, for someone who's maybe a young composer just getting started, what is a piece of advice that you would give to that person if they're just entering the world?
Meredith Brammeier: I would say, experiment a lot with a lot of different kinds of s- sounds, and listen a lot different kinds of music, which we're able to do now. Again, in this era, sometimes it can be overwhelming. There's so, so much coming at us in terms of what we can listen to, what we can look at. but, I would say be open kinds of music that maybe you say, "Ugh, I don't like that." But listen to it anyway, because it may give you some ideas that wouldn't come to you otherwise. Yeah
Morgan: Interesting. I'd love to share a zeitgeist moment with you. Again, zeitgeist moments I use on this, this podcast, Zeitgeist Radio, to kind of
Use as a
as a term to describe moments when you feel connected to the broader
zeitgeist through music.
So I
I always love ending... Every single musician, anyone, everyone has this experience. And I always love to hear from people, like, what really touches you? What makes you, like, have that, like, moment of just feeling connected to something bigger than yourself
through music? So I would love to hear from you what is either a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment, and while you're thinking about that, I'll share one.
I
really loved a comment that you made about
rehearsals, and getting to know a piece through the rehearsal process makes it almost more important than the performance. And I'm sure you're not surprised that I'm gonna share about this amazing concert we both did last
this year,
This summer,
we
got to work with Eric Whitacre on one of his his new-ish works done in, I think right before COVID,
. And The Sacred
Morgan: Veil.
Meredith Brammeier: He
Morgan: opened up the
Wednesday
rehearsal to
who wanted to come, and
I'm very lucky to have a great relationship with my mom.
a big musical influence on me and we kind of have the same
understanding,
like at a
soul
level of music. You know, we
we get it the same way,
and
I'm just so grateful that she...
Like, when, when I told her that
I was able to participate in this, she was like, immediately understood what that meant to me. So
she... I asked her if she wanted to come, and she was so excited to come to that Wednesday afternoon rehearsal. It was the first rehearsal we had with Eric Whitacre.
And I
mean,
yeah, the performance was cool, but
experience of working with someone who wrote the th- like, you know, he was sharing so much of what went into his process, where the words came from, what they mean, what the chords mean.
You know, there was a lot of information in there that,
and
just having that connection with my mom and having her in the room hearing this too
and knowing that for her, she got more out of the performance because she went to the rehearsal That was a really big connective moment to me,
Both
to, you know,
Eric Whitacre and a whole realm of musicianship that I don't get to interact with very often, but also just to my mom and someone who's really important to me.
So I really thought that you were spot on the money when you said the rehearsal process. Like, that was just so true to me. Like, the performance is such... Honestly, it's kind of a small part of... Like, ultimately, yeah, we all do this to have a performance, but as a singer myself,
The
rehearsal process is
just as
as important to me , and I get just as much or more out of it personally as the actual night where you give it to the world.
Meredith Brammeier: Right. And that's,
Morgan: Yeah.
Meredith Brammeier: why I really like performing. If I'm gonna do a piece, I love to perform it over hearing it, and I will
Morgan: Yeah. Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: course, but performing it is just so much better.
Morgan: Yeah, you get, you live with it. Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: so I was thinking about this this last performance that we did together, yeah, with the Eric Whitacre piece.
And that I've experienced, Sometimes, but not always, when you're singing with a group, that, and it's especially is when you're a cappella no accompaniment, and you can really get a chord in tune. And that means that, like, all of these overtones are ringing, and I can feel it in my head.
It's like my
Morgan: Yes. Yes.
Meredith Brammeier: And like you're, and you're a part of that big chord, whatever it might be. In, in, in the Eric Whitacre piece, it was a big chord. I've experienced this. I s- I sang in a, a quartet, a women's quartet for a long time, and sometimes we'd lock into that, that kind of tuning, too.
And this feeling of just everyone is totally in sync with each other, and we're all
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: other while we're singing, and then you're also, of course, creating this chord that the composer wrote. And it is really a kind of moment that don't think I've experienced in any other setting, not that I can remember, of just feeling that
And it's, it is, it's a feeling as well as a sound, feeling that
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: of a perfectly tuned chord. that is feeling that connection, I think, through
Morgan: Yeah
Meredith Brammeier: with everybody who's up there on stage with you. And then I do think also with whoever might be out there listening to you because I think they can feel that as well, just that coming together that no matter what, our day has been like, and no matter what's, what else is going on out there, when we all get together and we ring on that chord, there's nothing else that you're thinking of at that moment. to me that's
Morgan: Absolutely
Meredith Brammeier: mu- moment i- when you're making music together. And and of course, there's all kinds of other magical moments, when you're all in the text, in the words and feeling the words together. But that is one that I was reminded of in this concert that we did because, boy, that, it
Morgan: yeah
Meredith Brammeier: just a, an amazing moment when that happens, and I love it so much.
Morgan: I know. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Well, Meredith, thank you so much for being on my podcast. I so appreciate it.
Meredith Brammeier: very welcome. It's been a pleasure
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio, and thanks so much to Meredith for joining me. All of her links are in the episode description. Please go check them out and give her a follow. Please also subscribe to Zeitgeist Radio on whatever channel you're listening on right now.
If you are interested in having the highlights of these interviews dropped into your inbox, I make a newsletter version of each episode.
You can read the juicy bits and of course, access the transcripts anytime you want. Go to zeitgeistacademy.com/radio to sign up for that.
Did this episode make you think of a Zeitgeist moment of your own? Put it in the comments or send me an email at info@zeitgeistacademy.com. I always love to hear from people. I'm Morgan Roe. Thanks for listening
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