Dobro

Morgan: [00:00:00] Have you ever gotten introduced to something and then started seeing it everywhere? I think it even has a name, something like the blue car syndrome maybe, where you never see blue cars until you get one, and then you see them everywhere. Today I'm speaking with someone who plays what may come across as a pretty obscure instrument until you get to know it, then suddenly you're noticing it in all kinds of places

Welcome to Zeitgeist Radio. I'm Morgan Roe. Today, I'm speaking with a dobro player who plays in bands all across Montana and Alaska. Never heard of a dobro? After this conversation, you may realize it's right there in some of your favorite bands

My guest today is Jasper Eshelman, a dobro performer in Tustin, Montana, and my brother-in-law. Jasper, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.

jasper: How are you, Morgan?

Morgan: I'm so happy that we're doing this. It's been so cool watching you learn the dobro, [00:01:00] you taught me what it was. And I kept being like, "Jasper, you wanna come on?"

And you're like, "I don't know enough." And then one day you were like, "I know enough. Let's go."

So

jasper: It's been a journey for sure

Morgan: I know. I'm excited. This is gonna be really fun. I feel like I'm gonna learn a lot about you and a, a, a part of you that I don't know about already, let's start with just getting to know you a little bit.

How would you describe yourself musically? Who are you musically?

jasper: Oh man kinda all over the place. I, I like it all. I will listen from anything from traditional bluegrass down to Eminem. If you look at my Pandora playlist and Spotify playlist, they're all over the map. But yeah, so I started music started playing when I was, like, in third or fourth grade.

Started taking lessons just on the guitar, and, didn't realize it would have as big of an impact in my life as it, it would. It's-- At that age, it's tough to tell. But going through it was just always... I just related with [00:02:00] music, i've always loved it. I went from, Growing up, I didn't know there was anything other than country music on the radio. We had a school performer, and they said, "Oh, you probably hear this on the radio," and it's some Backstreet Boys song. And I'm like, "They don't put this on the radio. What are you talking about?" But then, my mom was a big '80s rocker fan, so we grew up listening to ZZ Top and Ratt and, all these bands that were big.

And then I f- you know, I played that stuff for a while and stuff. So it's, like I said, I've been all over the map musically. Until here recently I kinda found a groove in what I enjoy, but it's still-- I wouldn't call any specific genre of what I like to do.

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: yeah

Morgan: Yeah. Before, so I wanna ask about your journey with the dobro, but before that, I think we need to explain to people what that is, 'cause I think a lot of people maybe haven't heard of a dobro before, or maybe they've heard it, but they don't know that they've heard it,

jasper: yep. [00:03:00] So the Dobro was, it kinda comes from Hawaiian influence, that kinda like Hawaiian slide guitar. And then it kinda dubbed into, b- before electric guitars were a thing, these guitars were playing in these big brass bands and stuff, and they were like, "How do we get this sound?" So they kinda reinvented the wheel on it, and basically put a metal hubcap, like a metal cone inside that basically amplifies it, , and gets a lot brighter tone.

And then over the years, it's gone through modifications to get, different tones and different body to it. But it has frets. It's played as a fretless instrument, just like a slide guitar. So that's kinda where it got its start, and I've got one here. I don't know, I can show

Morgan: element to the podcast, so if people watch on Spotify or YouTube you could show

jasper: Yeah, I've got one. Yeah, so it's just like a, just a [00:04:00] big hubcap in the center that's got a...

Morgan: a guitar with a hubcap if you're

jasper: Yep

Morgan: the audio version, and then two holes in the body above. And the hubcap is big. It's like an actual hubcap size.

jasper: Yeah it's huge. It's huge. But yeah, so basically it was created just to get a bigger sound before they had an electric guitar element to it, so

Morgan: And it's played sideways.

jasper: Yes

Morgan: you, that's one way to tell if you're like, "Is this person playing a dobro?" If they're playing it like a guitar, it's probably not a dobro.

jasper: Yep. They do have a version that's also played like a standard guitar.

Morgan: Okay

jasper: But those are, the round neck models. The square neck models, the strings are up off the fretboard probably double the distance

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: and stuff, so

Morgan: Yeah, and we'll get into that later. I'm excited to learn a little more about that. So now that we have an idea of what a dobro is, when did you first encounter it?

jasper: Man, so I started hearing 'em on [00:05:00] records. Probably the first time I really tuned in on 'em was, guys like Josh Swift playing with Lowell Dawson and Quicksilver, and then and then The Wilder Blue. They're a-- They're not a bluegrass band. I would probably put them in country, but they can kinda get out of the country realm in their genre too, and I started hearing these, these slide guitars that had big, cool tone.

And so that kinda drew it to me, and then, I been playing guitars for years, and I kinda got tired of showing up to jam circles and being the ninth guitar there,

Morgan: Yeah.

Yeah

jasper: so I decided what's an instrument I've never seen at a jam circle here in Montana? So I kinda landed on one of them, and

Morgan: such a country presence in Montana,

jasper: Right

Morgan: there's a specific country vibe of, that the, that I've l- since learned that the dobro holds that you would expect a couple more people to [00:06:00] play.

jasper: Yeah, it was

Morgan: players, you don't have 'em... It's not a dime a dozen, but there's some,

jasper: And I've seen everything else at jam circles from trombones to,

Just random drums and stuff like that. So I was like I'll take a peek at that." And it's kinda funny, I- before I actually got a Dobro, I had your old red guitar,

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: and I built a, a nut that raised the strings up a little bit, and then I took a piece of pipe and squished it so I could have a slide, and that was my first, I guess my...

Morgan: jerry-rigged your first

jasper: Yep, jerry-rigged my first Dobro just to try and get, I wanted one. And man, I was, it, I was terrible. It sounded awful. Trying to learn an instrument, especially as an adult, it's, it can be challenging. But it was just something I was just driven to, and dove into listening to these great players like Jerry Douglas and then Andy Hall and stuff, and I just was infatuated with what they were doing on these things.

It was [00:07:00] insane

Morgan: So you were first, you talked about learning it. What was it like switching? 'Cause it, it looks just like a guitar to the

jasper: Mhm

Morgan: eye, so how, what was challenging about learning to play it besides just turning your brain sideways?

jasper: Yeah, luckily I came at it with kind of an open perspective,

not really correlating the two 'cause you're in a totally different tuning. You're not in a standard tuning, you're in an open tuning.

Morgan: So what do you have?

jasper: so you've got GBD and GBD,

Morgan: Okay

jasper: and so that kind of drew it to me too 'cause, I only have to remember patterns and stuff for three strings, and then they just repeat, right?

So yeah, it's... At that point I was like, "Okay, it's- I gotta look at this a little different." And I tried a little while on my own and, it was tough. I had a few things down. But then I ended up finding a guy that does lessons [00:08:00] online Joe Wilson. and I recommend him to anybody that wants to pick up a dobro and learn because he has it laid out that it's a good program.

And he does one-on-ones and stuff, and he was a big influence on it. He's played with guys like Billy Strings and stuff. And so he really kinda got me tuned into the stuff that really matters, you can kinda... So you're learning a new instrument, you're so eager to play songs

but there's so much in, any instrument that, if you get those foundation blocks set right, it sets you up in the future way better.

I was a guy that when I played guitar, I didn't know music theory. Said, "I don't need to know that." I knew three chords and the truth, and that was it for country style stuff, and then, getting with him, it, it blew my mind on just the music theory aspect and, playing clean.

It's pretty easy to get some unwanted tones in a dobro just from the bar sliding and, you wear metal finger picks, and trying to clean up when you pluck a string to mute that string before you do anything else on [00:09:00] it. He really kinda hammered in on the fundamentals and, there were some lessons I'd have with him, I'd come away with him, I was like, "Man, what am I doing?"

It was tough but, you just kept diving into it, and I'm super happy that I went through all that to transition over. But yeah, it was just one of those, I think everyone's got their instrument that they'll find that they really relate to, and I found mine at, 29 years old. Yeah, it's been a fun, fun deal and I'm constantly learning.

Constantly like sitting there "Huh, I can do that a little different." And like a big part is the music theory on it, so-

Morgan: What was different... So I have a really good intellectual grasp of music theory from college. I wouldn't say really good. I have a solid. But it's, it- I didn't have necessarily the practical application of it. I didn't jam,

jasper: mhm

Morgan: I have, i'm really curious how other people experience music theory when that is switched, when you [00:10:00] go from the jam into music theory versus the other way around.

'Cause to me, the music theory was, like, too much almost. It made the jam, I don't know. It was weird.

jasper: Right

Morgan: that like? What are some things that you were learning where you're like, "Whoa, that's kind of life-changing for my music"?

jasper: Yeah. The big one, you go to a jam and you're around all these guitars, and a lot of guys are just playing G shapes, just in G, C, D, but they capo all over the place.

Morgan: Sure

jasper: And, I can capo a Dobro. They make a special capo, but I really, try not to at times. So it was

Morgan: the sound?

jasper: No, I- if you capo over the fourth fret, it does, and stuff, it gets a little, pitchy. But, being able to play open position in that big G tone,

Was important. And then, if I capo I lose neck, and there's a lot of cool tones that I can get down there, instead of having to climb, climb clear [00:11:00] up the neck to get something I'm not gonna-- It's, I'm losing an octave,

Morgan: Right

jasper: know?

So that was a big deal I kinda dealt with. And then, playing the Dobro, being in an open, an open key to where I strum across and it's a G chord. If I hold my bar at the fifth fret, it's a C chord, but I don't have minor chords on a Dobro and stuff. It's kinda an offset triad.

Morgan: Sure. Okay

jasper: so in that regards, I get to cheat and stuff, and I'm still shaky on some music theory stuff, but, a big deal is being able to play by ear

And hear stuff. But, if someone's playing a G chord if I can pick up one of those notes that fall in that chord, I can make something cool,

so that was like the music theory part that got me thinking about, like, how can I add something different to it without, throwing a capo on and, being a different element to what they've got going on in a [00:12:00] jam circle or playing with a, playing with a buddy or something like that

Morgan: Yeah. What was it like when you a real Dobro?

jasper: Oh, man. It w- it was cool. A guy by the name of Ben Larson that I've listened to, he's out on the road on his own now Ben Larson and The Moondogs, he had one that he just bought and was like, "Hey, I just-- I'm gonna try it." And I mentioned that I wanted to play the dobro, and he's like you can take this one and just use it."

Yeah, I got it from him, and then ever since then, I've just been practicing like crazy. I upgraded all the parts in his dobro. Sorry, Ben, you're probably not getting the dobro back. But yeah, it was just, that was my first one. Just a lot better tone and just they're set up, there's,

Morgan: Do you

jasper: they're so un--

Morgan: Opened a little bit?

jasper: Yeah, it's tough when you're playing on an instrument that just doesn't sound good,

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: know?

It's like I c- I can't make this thing sound good no matter what I try. So when you have one that's set up properly [00:13:00] with string heights and, the neck set up well it's a game changer. So yeah, that really was a big turning point in my playing and stuff, and that was about the time I started taking those lessons.

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: And from there, it was just

Morgan: and you

jasper: with it.

Morgan: a new one, right?

jasper: I did just get a new one,

Morgan: Tell

jasper: and I'm obsessed with it. So it was the one I showed you guys earlier. It's all koa wood and stuff, and then I bought it from one of my biggest dobro influences and stuff. I was just online, I had a question about some sound stuff, and I just took a shot in the dark and just messaged Josh Swift.

And if there's a Mount Rushmore to dobro players, he's on it, so I messaged him and got to talking with him, and then I saw that he had this dobro for sale that he had bought and, upgraded and rebuilt all the parts himself and all this stuff, and I was like, "Man I've got to try and make a play on this."

So yeah, I bought it, and the tone [00:14:00] is fantastic. It was a big difference to jump from the one I had. And I'm not saying the one I had was poor quality at all, but it's a different quality for sure

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: So it's big sound and yeah, it's a cannon.

Morgan: when you were talking about it, I can relate pretty hard with the pianos, right? 'Cause I studied piano, right? And there's a point where you... if you're starting piano, y- just get a little thing, right? Just get a piano. Get something that holds a tune, holds its tuning pretty well, but it doesn't have to be anything fancy.

But then eventually you'll reach a point, if you keep working at it, where you outgrow your instrument,

jasper: Yep

Morgan: and then you get a n- a new one, and it... And just the possibilities in the touch and the tone and everything it's a pretty exciting moment. So I actually related a lot to

telling me about it, I'm like, "Yay, you outgrew your instrument," and now, you have so much more available to you

jasper: Yeah, and it's not

Morgan: on the craftsmanship and the [00:15:00] design and

jasper: Right? And like musicians are, we're just kinda chasing that next sound, we're chasing the better sound. We wanna, have people feel something. And, the nicer the instrument, you can feel it. There's...

Morgan: feel it if the player can do it, right? That's what, like if you were like yourself five years ago, if you were handed this, you wouldn't necessarily appreciate it the same way.

jasper: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't justify also, like, buying one that nice when I had no idea what I was doing, but yeah, it's

Morgan: Steinway is the go-to for pianos, but very few people actually own a Steinway. It's it doesn't matter for most people.

jasper: Yep

Morgan: if you can tell if you're good enough that it matters, then it matters.

jasper: Right.

Morgan: so talk to me about the jam sessions.

So you wanted to fill kind of a different role in the jam, and then also you've done some work in bands. Can you tell me, like, where the Dobro fits into the sound of a band? You mentioned it was built to project over even brass instruments, which I [00:16:00] actually didn't know that. So it's got some sound to it.

jasper: Mhm

Morgan: How do you see its function in an ensemble?

jasper: So it's, basically there's three elements that. You can play just a rhythm aspect which is just finger picking and just you're back behind everybody, back behind the melody, back behind the singer. And then you can play pads, which are little phrases that kind of accent what that singer is trying to tell and stuff.

And then full on lead for solos and whatnot. My first kind of big jam circles there was this bluegrass festival that I started going to, and, you'd... One of the ones you'd start jamming at 9:30 at night, and you probably wouldn't quit till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, and, it's everyone sits in a big circle, and y'all take turns taking a lead, but then you've gotta be able to back up, and my instructor was really keen on "Don't be that guy that's just too much [00:17:00] on one,"

Morgan: Right

jasper: you can make a big impression just by throwing a little bit in there at the right time, rather than being the guy that just wants to show off and overcrowd and it... I think at that point, you lose that uniqueness of the Dobro too, no one wants to listen to nine minutes of a guy wailing on one instrument, that's not the band aspect. so yeah. So it's just kinda just feeling what that song needs, some, some songs don't need a Dobro solo. They don't need a whole lot of crazy fills or something. Just a good slide here and there can really put some different emotion into a song and tell the story a little bit better

Morgan: Oh, that's interesting. So you're just going off of what you feel. If you're familiar with the song, that helps, or what you feel in the moment for a jam,

jasper: Ja

Morgan: how was it received when you started? I know how I have seen it be received from you, but it, what was your perspective of when you started doing this and bringing it to jams?

What happened?

jasper: I think overall it was... If someone didn't like it, I wasn't ever told, it was just, that [00:18:00] first bluegrass festival I went to, it was, pretty good size

Morgan: Did

jasper: stuff. Yeah. Yep, it was, it's been, I've- there's been a few people that have not had any idea, but at that bluegrass deal, it was like everyone was excited to have me there 'cause I w- the first year I went, I was the only dobro player,

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: and I had been playing the dobro for three weeks at that time and stuff.

So they would, of course, "Lead a song." And I was like, "I barely know how to play this. How do I lead a song?" They all took it pretty good and everything. And then all the bands I've played with, they've been excited just to, throw me in on some of their stuff 'cause it is so unique, and then, they're starting to build a little more dobro community around this area and stuff. I'm starting to see a lot more of 'em, which is a good thing. I think we could all... Yeah, I don't know if I set the trend, but

Morgan: guy. He does that thing. Oh, that thing is cool."

jasper: yeah. I was playing one show, and there was a guy in the crowd that was like, "You sure play that guitar funny."

I'm [00:19:00] like,

Morgan: su-

jasper: " Yep."

Morgan: sure you get that a decent bit. That's what I thought. I'm like, "What is he doing?"

The first time I saw it anyway. So you've done some kind of cool stuff. I'm aware of a few of 'em. So something about Jasper is he doesn't really toot his own horn much.

So I rely on my sister for all of your exciting life updates.

So I'm aware of a couple of 'em including a pretty cool recording project. But why don't you talk me through a couple places that you've played that have been really cool?

jasper: Yeah. So kinda everything is starting to come full circle for me, and it's kinda really cool. I've always wanted to play live,

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: Play gigs, but, part of that I was terrified. I had no idea how to start, and luckily I worked with a, a guy by the name of Tom Randall that's an incredible singer and a great musician, and we were just bored one day and we were like, "Hey let's go play a gig."

And so we called the local bar here in Tostin, and they told us [00:20:00] no. So we ... we had, had the day planned out, so we invited everyone out on the back deck at my house and played for 15 people. and that was kinda the first gig that I ever had on that. And then he ended up moving away to Alaska a little later.

We'd played the Bunkhouse finally got into the Bunkhouse the next year after new ownership and stuff. And I remember we went in there and we had to move the pool table, and there was this one guy that was just furious about it And he stayed the whole time. At one point, he was the only guy in the bar listening to us and stuff.

So

Morgan: so

jasper: that-- yeah.

Morgan: what else is he gonna do?

jasper: so that, that was the start, and then I started playing with a really good friend of mine out at Dillon, Rachel Potter, and we started a band called Derailed. And just started playing little bar gigs here and there and kinda got more into a groove of it, and then [00:21:00] ended up just meeting more musicians.

We had a cool chance to play, it's called Grown Ass Fest in Philipsburg, and, it was four bands came for the day, and we got to be one of the bands, and it was a really cool experience. At that time, it was the biggest gig I've ever played, the nicest stage we had. Someone else was taking care of the sound and everything.

So played there, and then the guy who puts that on is that Ben Larson that gave me the Dobro. And in his band after that, he asked me, he's "Hey, do you wanna come into the studio with me? I've got a new album coming out. I'd love to have you on a couple songs." And so yeah, last November, I got to go into the studio and record, which was a cool experience.

Luckily, he sent me some scratch tracks, and I really appreciated that he let me just kinda take my spin on it, there was no, "Hey, I want you to do this style of licks this going on." He said, "Man it's your world. Let's put something cool together." So yeah, I was on [00:22:00] three, three tracks in that album, and that album was released in February and stuff.

And since then, I've started playing with Ben here off and on. We had the album release that he invited me to jump in and play. And then man, it's just kinda opened, the floodgates have kinda opened up a little bit. Still small-time, but, I'm not looking for anything.

I'm just enjoying the moment, and taking every opportunity I can get to just play music.

So yeah, we played the album release, and then there's a cool venue in here in Montana called Lewis & Clark Brewing that I've seen some incredible bands play. And it was funny, like a week before, I was like talking to my wife.

We're there having a beer, and I was like, "I really wanna play this stage." And then I ended up two weeks later actually getting to play on that stage and, getting to sit in the green room and see all the signatures of all these bands on the wall like Turnpike and Corblunt and, 3 Doors Down and Nickelback.

It was kinda cool to And that's where that full circle kinda came along to where, Ben was the first [00:23:00] guy to give me the dobro, and then I got to be on his album, and then, we got to go tour a little bit and continue on there. And then just trying to take every opportunity I can to keep going, it's-- I'm still playing and recording with Tom out of Alaska which is a different element just 'cause we're flying back and forth for gigs.

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: And we're not making any money on the gigs. We're just happy if we can gig enough just to get one, one person to the door, you know, back and forth, but that's kinda been cool

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: to do that

Morgan: Oh, that's so cool. I have seen Derailed and I think what surprised me most about was it's just you and Rachel.

And the Dobro, in my mind, had been more of like it fits in, like in... I don't know, I guess I had this [00:24:00] preconceived notion that it fits in... I guess that it has a smaller role, right? But you

jasper: Yep

Morgan: made it work. She played guitar and sang, you played Dobro, and, I was amazed by the balance of it. Your Dobro wasn't overwhelming to where, like you said, you were listening to nine minutes of one instrument, like, soloing. But also the way that you were weaving in and out of her voice, it was pretty cool how much that worked. 'Cause I had always thought that it was something that would be in a bigger ensemble.

jasper: Yeah. And I owe that to Joe Wilson, my instructor that I had, 'cause that was a big, He really pushed me on that, as, as don't be that guy. And then too, here in Montana, I don't- might not get a lot of opportunities to play with a big band.

it's so what's the option that I can bring in?

My other band that I play with Tom we're known as Tom Randall & The Second Hand Strings, and it's kinda one of those floating deals. [00:25:00] When he's up here, it's just me and him,

And it's it's how can we balance each other out and actually bring a fuller sound to what's going on.

And then, yeah I like playing with a big band 'cause I feel like it takes a little bit of pressure off me

'cause I don't have to be so active and try and fill so much space. I can quit playing for one or two bars or something, and the rest of the band's there, and it doesn't seem fractured.

Playing with a two-piece, it's you're trying to weave those elements of the rhythm side, the pads, and the lead all into one to try and just complement the whole sound

Morgan: Yeah. Boy, that sounds like a lot of thinking. May- maybe it gets more intuitive, but

jasper: Yeah, I, I, no it's... I don't know if it's a lot of thinking. It's just a lot of feeling,

Morgan: I'm taking a quick break here, but keep listening

Because in the second half of this interview, we get into some really cool projects [00:26:00] Jasper's working on right now, plus something called Jam Grass. What the heck is that? Keep listening to find out. Zeitgeist Radio is put together completely by me, Morgan. I find the guests, prepare and run the interviews.

I do all my own editing. I publish transcripts on my website and put CliffsNotes version into a newsletter for those folks who prefer reading to listening. Since I cover so many different types of topics, I put them into playlists on YouTube, so if you really like an episode, you can explore more like it.

For example, this episode is about an instrument called the Dobro. I have a playlist that is all about awesome instruments, including the harmonica, the alphorn, and even the iPad. I do it because I love this project.

If you have gotten value from this conversation, please contribute. Even a few dollars helps me out, not only with the cost, but also with enthusiasm. Man, it does not take much to make me wildly enthusiastic about continuing to do this, and hearing from you and knowing you value [00:27:00] this is ridiculously invigorating for me.

Everything I've just talked about is at zeitgeistacademy.com/radio. Check it out. Now, let's get back to Jasper

what's something you're figuring out right now in your own craft or exploring?

jasper: Right now just trying to get kinda... i'm always looking to clean up my playing and kinda be more versed around the fretboard. Trying to work from lower end to higher end and make that transition seamless. but then just trying to, like I said, trying to cheat a little bit, when he's playing a certain chord what can I do that's maybe not typical, one thing I really like, you'll have guys, they'll be just bluegrass songs, and you'll take a fill, and at the end of a fill or a little lead, I'll throw some, some blues lick in there and stuff, and it just kinda for a second turns an ear. It doesn't [00:28:00] sound bad, but some of those traditional bluegrass guys, they...

It's a little bit of shot in the ribs, but it's unique, it's emotion. It's cool. Just trying to work on just kinda some of that and just building my own sound. I've got such great influences that I try and pull from but, still wanna find my identity and just keep learning.

There's still so much,

Morgan: yeah. I'm glad you brought up the blues because I want to shift from your story with dobro into a little more cultural you've mentioned that it's from Hawaii. It has a presence in country and bluegrass. When I picture slide guitar, I actually picture blues first.

so where do you typically, where do people typically see is there a genre that kind of, don't want to say owns the dobro but w- where it's most highly correlated?

jasper: Man, I w- I would probably say bluegrass

Morgan: Okay

jasper: stuff is kinda where it lives nowadays and into country, but it's got a heavy blues influence.

And a lot of guys when they'll go to play [00:29:00] those, bluesy songs, they do change the tuning. It goes to an open D. I don't have a lot of experience playing that stuff.

I can still get some cool bluesy stuff out of what I'm doing. But there's, there is a lot of blues out there that's got dobro in it.

Morgan: So let me ask this question then. Do you know what the difference is between a Dobro and a slide guitar?

jasper: Big one's tuning.

Morgan: Okay

jasper: a lot of guys that'll play that slide guitar, they play them in standard tuning and stuff like,

Morgan: Got it

jasper: yeah. But, and then I think it's their big cone in there. It's the big sound

Morgan: I honestly don't know. I don't even know m- I don't know anything about slide guitar. That doesn't have that cone in there? It's just a

jasper: they do, but they're-- it's, the bridge in it's built a little different. Back to you can still get that hubcap in it that they play traditional style, but the strings aren't lifted. You can still play it like a normal guitar, and usually they'll just wear like a, a bar on [00:30:00] their ring finger to add slide elements to it, and there's some amazing players out there that do that.

It's a different tone. I... Personally, I wouldn't say it's as full-bodied. It's more traditional bluesy

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: style

Morgan: Yeah. You're making me think about technique again, because there's difference. So when you mentioned that you have the picks on your fingers.

jasper: Yep.

Morgan: as like a banjo?

jasper: Yeah. Yep

Morgan: Okay. And it's, so when I picture banjo, I picture picking.

Is it,

jasper: Primarily, yep, primarily picking. Yep

Morgan: and then the slide, do you have one on the r- on your finger that you use? Or what do you use

jasper: I don't play a whole lot of traditional slide style.

Morgan: What do you use for the sound on the,

jasper: It's a glass bar that just fits over your ring finger for slide guitar, and mine is a, like a tone bar. It's just one that you hold in between your fingers.

Morgan: Yeah.

So like I guess that would [00:31:00] be a difference, a gu- slide guitarists are, they're actually fingering chords, right?

jasper: They can, yeah. You can play it like a guitar. You can still finger frets on it

Get those traditional notes out of it, but

Morgan: Yeah. Can you hold up that thing again? I think it's interesting 'cause it's not what I had expected.

jasper: Yeah, and it just cradles. Yeah, it's, it, and it just cradles in between your middle finger and your thumb and stuff, and sits in there

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: that. And there's diff- we could go into different slide deals and that, that's a big rabbit hole, different instruments are, have different slides that you'll play them on and stuff, so

Morgan: mu- so it sounds like you mostly play bluegrass and country.

jasper: Yep

Morgan: there any others that you have dabbled in? You mentioned throwing in blues licks, but you don't play in blues bands, right?

jasper: I don't play in blues bands. Haven't yet. That would be a cool experience. I would love to

Morgan: so in, is there a difference in your mind between bluegrass and country as far as your [00:32:00] playing goes?

jasper: I think it's maybe read the room on that. There's definitely, there's guys that, are traditional bluegrass, so you do end up playing a different style than say, there's cool blues bluegrass bands out there that are more new wave alternate, and that's not even getting into the jam grass,

Morgan: Jam grass.

jasper: Yeah. Yeah, which is like these 19-minute solos and it's nuts. But, so it's just reading the room and feeling what, what style is being played. I do like traditionally like playing more new age stuff, the Wilder Blue's a great band. I wouldn't peg them to have a dobro player, but he is an impressive dobro player, and dobro paired with electric guitar played with a full trap set too.

It's kind of a cool element, and so you're starting to see it a lot more being brought into new music. And you hear it in some like Nashville country stuff, but not a whole lot. It's mostly coming out of like that Texas [00:33:00] scene. And then it's

Morgan: a band that has an electric guitar?

jasper: I have not

Morgan: I imagine the sound between those two could be really fun to play,

jasper: Yeah

Morgan: ' Cause they're like sorta similar but not, like

jasper: yep, I haven't played, but it's that album I got to go in to record. It's, there's an electric guitar in there. A guy by the name of Lance Handyside is playing the Telecaster on a couple of those tracks, and he's insane. He's an incredible musician. So I've always thought that the Telecaster should be a bluegrass instrument just 'cause it's got such cool tone.

But how it all works out, it weaves pretty cool together,

Morgan: if s- if folks are interested in checking out you've mentioned a lot of names but where are some, some play- who are some players in the bluegrass scene, and then maybe separately in the country? Or do people just overlap a lot?

jasper: there's, at least for the known ones, there's a little bit of overlap. You've got guys like Jerry Douglas that's been [00:34:00] on thousands of records for all sorts of people. Right now he's touring with Alison Krauss. He's, if you're interested in learning some cool dobro stuff he's a guy to look up 'cause he's definitely influenced that whole genre altogether.

Andy Hall from the infamous Stringdusters has done the same and stuff, and he's kinda got a unique story. He's oh, like I wanna say like Julliard or some music, high music school like that, that is where he got all his music knowledge from, and then picked up a dobro in college and just ran away with it, so yeah, I guess if you wanted to kinda check it out, I'd say those two are the front runners, and then I'll always drop the Wilder Blue 'cause they're kinda doing some new stuff with it that you might not hear on those Jerry Douglas albums or, Andy Hall. Those guys are a little more traditional,

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: but

Morgan: what do you play? I know you say you like playing both, but are the... in the bands that you play in, do they lean more towards one or the other?

jasper: it's probably more along the lines of Americana [00:35:00] currently. Definitely with Ben Larson and The Moondogs is more Americana feel.

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: I play more traditional style old school country with Derailed. And then with Tom, we've been called sailor country blues.

Morgan: What?

jasper: don't, I don't quite know why, but with him living out in Alaska, a lot of his songs are based on, ocean and fishing and stuff like that.

So I ... The last gig I played with him, someone in the crowd said, "That's kind of our genre." And I was like all right, cool. I haven't seen that genre on Spotify, but maybe we'll be the first." Yeah, I don't know

I guess I wouldn't peg my style down as any one, one main one. I like trying to pull influences from all of them. I'm trying to get better with my, '50s, '60s country style just 'cause a lot of guys like hearing that stuff in the crowd and, you know, so

Morgan: Yeah. Something that's super [00:36:00] interesting as I'm listening to you talking, it's almost like your role is to gather sounds, right? To gather styles and licks and little bits, and then almost like a DJ, a really good DJ will throw in something where you're like, "Whoa, I never thought that those would work together." Or he'll throw in some old sound into something new, or some new sound into s- You know what I mean?

Like the mixing and matching of, It's a, it's an interesting creative process rather than playing a song from start to finish, right? And where it's linear.

like you're, like, almost like a DJ mindset of on the fly, what would make this interesting? What would be a fun little support to the singer or to this or that?

I don't know if that resonates to you, but

jasper: Oh yeah, no.

Morgan: it well.

jasper: No I definitely get what you're saying. As, I think as musicians we're all trying to, be creative,

Let's, and that's, that creativity can [00:37:00] be, fuel for something bigger, so it's, that's, I really like trying to look at that aspect. So I totally get what you're saying, finding these unusual licks or a different perspective on it,

Morgan: like throwing a

jasper: S-

Morgan: into a bluegrass, like

jasper: yeah, some of my favorite, yeah, some of my favorite stuff is, we're working out a song for our next gig with Derailed, it's a Lady Gaga song

Morgan: see, like that's cool, yeah

jasper: You know, and like we're gonna start doing some Pearl Jam stuff, and it's just like, how can we, make it different, make it our own just be that creative musician

Morgan: Yeah. You're around a lot of songwriters. Do you write or do you see that in your future?

jasper: I do. I'm working on it. I'm not very good at it. I've helped my buddy Tom. We've co- co-written one song so far out of his 25 that he's written. He'll sit down at lunch and write a song, and I'm just not that person yet. I want to be. I enjoy it but I still haven't quite gotten [00:38:00] that grasp yet.

That's definitely something I'm working on for the future

Morgan: I think you'd be good at it. I think your approach would be very creative. Something that I have observed through watching you guys play and just being around, so you called Ben's music Americana. Me it's almost like a folk, like a western folk in a

jasper: Yeah

Morgan: It's very storytelling based, rather than having verses and a chorus that repeats, right? There'll be some kind of a chorus maybe but the verses are very like a story of a place or a character in history or that he knew, right?

I know country music goes into that too, but especially the folk element of it.

jasper: Yep

Morgan: and it must be interesting to weave your, additions through the story. , Do you take the lyrics into account when you're looking at this type of stuff, or you go based off of the sounds and the, or all of the above?

jasper: I guess at that [00:39:00] time maybe I don't try and dive down into it, but definitely, I'm not gonna throw on a happy lick if he's talking about

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: sad, right?

But so yeah I'll take the lyrics into effect, but mainly just kind of the emotion in the song

And how can I spin that?

And you're right, especially with Ben, his ... They're not traditionally structured,

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: some of his stuff which is really fun to play. And it does definitely push me a little bit to try and get better 'cause, there's been some shows that he's thrown some songs in there I have never played before, and the first time I'm hearing them is playing live

Morgan: Jeez.

jasper: and stuff.

Try not to derail that train,

Morgan: i

 guess if you have the keyand a bit of a mood, is that all you need?

jasper: I'm gonna go with it, and then I'll either get praise or get yelled at after the show, but yeah, it's just feeling that emotion that song carries and seeing what I can do to it and, sometimes it might be nothing, a good point to step [00:40:00] in, and then there's also a good point to just step out of it, let, let what he's doing, tell the tale

Morgan: Yeah. Do you still jam?

jasper: I do. I try to. . If there's no one around, I'll just throw on Pandora and just Play along to Pandora, which has really helped my ear. There's no chord chart on Pandora.

 , have you jammed since some of the other dobro players started showing up? What's it like to

jasper: Yeah

Morgan: dobro player?

jasper: It's cool. It's cool. You know, it's funny, some people do get... I don't know if it's territorial or just, I

Morgan: mean it's a unique instrument so I don't know

jasper: Yeah it's been a few times. And m- 99% of the time it's really fun, especially if you can get going back and forth and kinda,

Morgan: yeah

jasper: know, getting a g- a jive on or something like that.

It can be a lot of fun. But but I don't run into very many of them, just at the bluegrass festivals, but just random jam circles or something like that, you don't see them

Morgan: [00:41:00] Yeah I had at one point I was gonna ask you if you're the only dobro player in Montana, Nope nope I am not

jasper: I'm probably the only dobro player in Tostin, so I'll...

Morgan: 50?

jasper: S- yeah. Yep

Morgan: what do you wish more people knew about dobro?

jasper: Man, I do wish there, it was more in music, when I started playing, I started hearing it a little bit in songs and was like, "Oh, wow, that's a Dobro in there," but yeah, I'm always, I want this instrument to grow. I want more people to know about it.

I want more people to pick one up, play.

I wish music stores around here had more of them,

any of them. Yeah, overall it's always, people like it, and I think it's a creative way to just get people playing music if you don't wanna just be the millionth guitar player or something. You can start with that, and I think overall, generally, it's easy to start, being [00:42:00] that, open chord deal.

It's easy to play a G, C, and D on them,

just strum a chord. So I think it, if it got people more into music, that would be fantastic

Morgan: Yeah. I close every episode by asking about a, a recent zeitgeist moment. So this would be a time that you've through music felt like you're part of something bigger than yourself. So I'll ask you about either a recent or a memorable one. And while you're thinking about it, I wanna share mine with you. And I actually I have two in my head, and one of them was just the first time that I saw you playing the Dobro. I just, I'd never heard of it. I don't know how I lived in Montana, like I grew up there and never even of an instrument, like that. so that kind of plugged me into wow, that doesn't come out of nowhere. It's a weird shape, right? You play it funny. But

jasper: Right

Morgan: it... I was wow. But then the, the zeitgeist moment [00:43:00] that kind of came full circle was one time when I was visiting Derailed had a gig at some county fair, right?

And my dad and I went with you guys, And you were just in a zone and I was experiencing, that style in a different way.

Like the interplay between you and her voice was just so cool. and I got it. It clicked for me. 'Cause the first time I'd seen you play it, it was like years ago, and you were just getting started, right? And you have come

jasper: Угу

Morgan: far, and you have practiced so much. And but I haven't seen the mid of that process. So all of a sudden, there you were up there, and it was like, like, "You guys are like legit. Like this is, sounds

jasper: th- I appreciate that, Morgan.

Morgan: And I I'll have you put, send me maybe some, some places if you want people to find you. but I would encourage people to go listen.

jasper: Yeah, I'll just, I'll s- send you the stuff and we can put it in the, the podcast notes,

Morgan: Yeah, I'll put

jasper: for where I'm at, [00:44:00] where I'm at right now.

Morgan: Yeah. I think what surprised me was the interplay. It was a conversation. You were mentioning before the three elements. I, I wasn't sure how it would work as a duo, and it... know why I was so surprised by it, but it just, it was so cool. And it was you guys having a real conversation. Yes, you were performing. It was a funny little county fair. People were coming and going, and they got their popcorn or whatever, but it didn't even matter. You guys were in your own world, and it was awesome.

jasper: thank you. That's a huge compliment. That's what I'm trying to do and, I just hope that it is perceived that way.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: So

Morgan: to hear from you what's either a recent or a memorable moment that just, like, where you kinda plugged into something bigger

jasper: Yeah, I would, man, I would have to say, like I said, I've always wanted to play live

you know, getting over that fear of doing that it took some time, and it takes some, some bumps and bruises and stuff on it and feeling insecure. [00:45:00] And I got to go just on a little quick tour with Ben Larson and the Moondogs through eastern Montana, and for one, the people out there were just so gracious of it, I don't know if they don't get music a lot out there or what, but they were just so excited that we were there. One day we played in the gas station. They had a little historic corner set up and, yeah, we played at the gas station in Bratis. And there was a lot of peo-

Morgan: write a song about that.

jasper: Yeah, I hope so. I hope so.

There's a few songs that could come out of that trip. but kinda the moment was, we were playing in Ekalaka the next night at the bar, and it just, for me it was kinda ... I forgot I was playing in a bar, everybody kinda linked up with the band. We had, a banjo player, guitarist, guy on a Cajon, and me, and it just linked up and we were, it felt like it was on, and it really felt like [00:46:00] we all kinda caught lightning in a bottle

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: for one night,

And at that moment, I, I quit thinking and I just started feeling the music and it just, I wasn't thinking what I was gonna play next. It was just feeling emotion and just going there, and it just kinda transcended into just just raw emotion,

Morgan: Yeah

jasper: And it's, I didn't know I would learn this, but sometimes playing a show can be emotionally exhausting,

Morgan: Yeah.

jasper: Afterwards y- you go through so much. Yeah.

Morgan: I get that.

Yeah

jasper: so it was just kinda that, just kinda ... It wasn't just, "Oh, we're just a band up here playing," we were, we had something cool going on, so

Morgan: Yeah. I love that. Lightning in a bottle. That is a great that's a great moment. Sounds like a really great moment

jasper: Yeah, it was cool. It was fun

Morgan: Awesome. Jasper, thank you so much for coming on my

jasper: Yeah. Thank [00:47:00] you for having me, Morgan. I'm glad we could finally get this, get our timelines synced up to get this done. Thank you

Morgan: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio, and thanks so much to Jasper for joining me. So fun to have my family on my podcast. I'm so happy. All of his links, including links to the groups he's played with, are in the episode description. Please check them out and give them a follow. Please also subscribe to Zeitgeist Radio on whatever channel you're listening on right now.

Did this episode make you think of a Zeitgeist moment of your own? Put it in the comments or send me an email at info@zeitgeistacademy.com. I think I've already said it's so exciting when people share a takeaway or let me know they've listened. I'm Morgan Roe. Thanks for listening.