Are you a singer? I'm a singer, at least an amateur one. Wherever you sing in the car, in the shower while cooking or with others. I think it's always nice to learn how to sound a little bit better. Singing techniques and pedagogy work to break down the mechanisms that you used to sing. Today, I'm speaking with a voice teacher about some specific techniques she uses to help her students get the best sound possible.
Welcome to zeitgeists radio, where we learn about musical subcultures from people in the scene. If you love this, be sure to subscribe and give a like or comment if you can. Thanks! Now let's get into the interview.
📍 My guest today is Andrea Veal, a performer and teacher out of Southeastern New Hampshire. Andrea, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to see and hear you. Yes. She's also my cousin, so that's very fun.
Uh, so Andrea, Let's just start with an introduction of yourself. How would you describe yourself musically?
Well, I'm a voice teacher and professional singer. Um, I, the main thing I do is run my own voice studio, the Andrea Beale voice studio. Um, and that's my full time like kind of more than full time job.
Um, I see probably over 50 students a week. I don't. I don't actually know how many students I have right now. Um, everybody asks me how many, and I, I never have a, an exact head count, but, but it's a, it's a lot of people. Um, I perform when I can. Um, I grew up listening to my dad who's a professional cellist, um, practice Beethoven sonatas and Bach cello suites, um, in our living room and, um, just always had that, uh, that tone color, the, of the cello, um, in my ear and, um, Had classical music in my ear all the time.
My mom is also a classical musician, pianist turned music historian. And we didn't listen to. We really didn't listen to popular radio at all growing up. We just listened to NPR, the classical station on NPR. And I remember my parents, um, we were driving somewhere, basically playing name that tune on the classical radio.
So I had a very, very Very rich and very intense classical music background and continued that in college and got a degree in voice performance and then music history with a singing emphasis at the University of New Hampshire, and there was no, that was all classical singing. Uh, in that, in those degrees as well, and so just never had it in my scope that I would want to make any other kind of sound.
Right? Then I graduated from UNH and, um, decided that I was going to, you know, perform professionally as much as I could and also teach voice and I've done a fair amount of that. You know, professional performing. I, I'm a church musician as well. Um, so I, I will often sing solos for church services and, um, but then realized.
As I began my private studio that, Oh, well, people want to make more than just classical sounds. Yes. I suppose I should learn how to do some of that too. And so I've spent a lot of years, um, uh, you know, figuring out how to make more contemporary sounds, belting sounds, um, commercial music kinds of sounds.
And, um, At any rate, uh, that's a big part of what I do now. Although I do, I, I coach all styles of music. Um, and, um, I only teach at my own studio. Now I've taught at the university of New Hampshire and a couple of community music schools in New Hampshire, but really love having the autonomy of my own studio and getting to decide what I want to program for the studio.
If I see that A majority of my students need something. I will do a class on it and no one's telling me what kind of class they, you know, they want me to, you know, the organization that maybe at a music school would kind of say like, Hey, we need a class on such and such. No, one's telling me that I get to just respond to the needs of my students and I really love that.
That's amazing. Yeah, and I love teaching voice. It's completely fascinating.
Yeah, I was gonna ask you for that, Did you did when you were getting into teaching, was that just kind of because it felt like a natural thing to do?
Or did you like, want to teach? Like, was that a goal that you had in mind?
Well, I didn't get a degree in voice pedagogy. Yeah, those degrees are, they're becoming a lot more common and more schools are offering them. Um, but it wasn't something that UNH had, and it wasn't something that I really. I, that I intended to pursue because I love performing so much and I, I really wanted to get better as a singer.
Um, and so I really wanted to study, you know, improving my own voice, but. Uh, my first, the first voice lessons that I gave were in a vocal pedagogy class during my master's degree. And I loved it. I, it was like, so, um, rewarding and fascinating. And I felt like, Oh, wow. I have so much actually to say to this person, you know?
Um, so I, I think it was a very happy accident that I discovered that I really loved teaching too.
Yeah.
Um, also because. It's really hard to make a living as a performing musician. Yes. Totally. Pretty, you know, nobody was telling me that. And while my parents, my parents actually were telling me that, but I was not listening, but, but nobody in the, in my music degree program was telling me that they were just focused on, okay, I got to teach you these skills.
Yeah. Um,
so I'm glad that. I, it turned out that I really liked teaching a lot. And, um, so I knew as I was finishing my master's degree that I was going to be teaching in addition to trying to perform.
Yeah. So you, you brought up the word pedagogy. I'm glad you did. Um, just in case some folks don't know what that is.
Can you define pedagogy really quick?
Yes. So vocal pedagogy is the art and science. Okay. of teaching people to learn how to sing, and that would cover topics like, or things that you might need to know if you were going to teach voice. might be anatomy and physiology, like vocal anatomy, but also the anatomy of breathing, um, knowledge of diction or how to pronounce, um, articulation of words, um, vocal health, things that you should do to keep your voice healthy, things that you should avoid doing to keep your voice healthy, um, interpretation, you know, musical interpretation, um, a knowledge of different Vocal styles.
So like, oh, well, you're looking to make a very sweet, pretty sound in classical music. But, you know, if you're singing Adam Lambert from Queen, you know, you're not trying to make a pretty sound. There are other ways you would describe that, like maybe intense or loud or, um, so a knowledge of how to produce those different kinds of sounds, um, and probably also some Um, Understanding of acoustics and in voice pedagogy, I think there's a huge.
Interpersonal relationship element as well, because the voice is such an. internal thing. Most people think of their voices as themselves. And, um, so it can be very, you know, a voice lesson can bring up a lot of emotions. Yes. Can be very, very emotional in many positive ways. And, you know, sometimes can bring up some, some past, you know, traumas or, you know, yeah, I guess, psychological issues that you like your, your voice is really integrated into who you are as a person.
Yeah.
Although I think, you know, for my students, it's very helpful for me to tell them, like, let's look at this as an instrument. You have a lot of choices and the way that you sound is, you know, a combination of how your parents sounded and what listen, what music you listen to growing up and where you grew up in the country.
And like, that's why your voice sounds this way. Your voice can sound a lot of different ways. And. Like, you know, you, it's okay to explore those other, those other sounds. And if, if you look at a little bit more objectively, like, okay, this is an instrument, I can't see it from the outside because it's inside me, but no, there are, you know, like, okay, not valves like you would have on a trumpet, but there are physical elements to this instrument, which I can think about and understand and make choices about.
That's
so important. For anyone looking to sing, I'd say, would you say that's like one of the very number one baseline things that is important for them to understand? Because you can't, it's hard to work with something if they don't have the approach, if a student doesn't have an approach of that. Then, then it's hard to, um, it's hard to give constructive feedback without it feeling like you're attacking them directly.
Right, like it's you. Yeah, it's like. Yeah.
Yeah, I think for sure, understanding that this is an instrument too. Yeah. And then actually understanding something about the instrument, you know, um, I think, you know, voice is this weird thing. Mm hmm. Because it, yeah, it can feel very mysterious because you can't like, take apart your instrument the way that you can if you are a trumpet player or a clarinet player.
So you, you know, ideally you'd want to really know something about vocal anatomy and like, look at some anatomical drawings. Mm-Hmm. and look at some videos and like understand, okay, that's how, that's how I'm doing this. Um, and take a little bit of the mystery away. Um, and then it, then it can, you know, have the effect of depersonalizing it and recognizing like, okay, well, I can, I can choose to make my larynx higher or lower.
And when I speak, like for me, I tend to speak with like a low voice. Slightly lower
larynx,
um, you know, because of all of the reasons, all of the things I grew up hearing, um, you know, and singing teachers often do have a kind of like a sing songy sort of voice, um, singers in general often do have a sing songy sort of voice, but, you know, we can make different choices with that instrument.
Right. Yeah. So these techniques, uh, as far as the, the pedagogy goes, um, I imagine you, so have you internalized those, um, like separately, if you, if you weren't studying in school specifically, um, have you taken classes on that? How did you pick up all of these other styles and techniques that we're going to go into today?
Like where, where do people find that information outside of school?
Well, I mean, I think the first way that people find that information is by studying voice themselves, you know, so a lot of what, especially my beginning years as a teacher, a lot of what I did with my students, um, was, you know, You know, modeled after the things that I experienced in voice lessons, you know, so I, of course, as a voice major, I was studying voice during all of those years of college.
Um, so you, you get a lot of information from the teachers from whom you study. Um, but then you, then you, if you have multiple teachers, you start to realize, oh, wow, there are some different approaches here too. Right. And then you have to start to think about, well, what's working the best with my students.
Um, And so, so I think early years was a lot of, um, just my experience of going through voice lessons myself and passing that along to my students. Um, and then early on, I joined the National Association of Teachers of Singing, which is a great, great trade organization. Um, I'm really grateful to that organization.
Um, and. I did do a, an intern program through the through Nats, N A T S, um, which was like a 2 week long program where you got paired with a master teacher and that person observed you teaching and you observed them teaching and then there were kind of group discussions, um, where they, they brought in some.
Experts addition in addition to the master teachers. Um, so that was a fantastic experience. Um, and then also really, it's really through Nats that. I found things that I'm interested in pursuing. Um, they have a journal so you can read journal articles and, you know, see, like, if that author is offering something that's like really interesting to you.
Or the way I usually do it is there's a. Nats chat, which are monthly conversations with different experts and voice. And so I will often watch those and then, like, oh, my gosh, I got to read that person's book. Right so, um, yeah, so I would say Nats is a great organization and, you know, then you, once you, like, read somebody's book or watch an interview with them, then it's kind of like you pull this thread and there's so many, so many more things that you need to like study.
Yeah. Um, but that is part of what makes it so fun is that, um, in the field of teaching voice, there is so much that we still do not know about how the voice actually functions, about what singers are doing when they make certain kinds of sounds. We know a lot more than we knew 20 years ago when I was in college or just just getting out of college a lot more.
Um, but there is still so much unknown in that field, which I feel like is kind of like, bizarre in our modern age to think that there's still so much that we need to like study
in the thing that we've been doing since probably we could make noises. Possibly predating language,
right? Yeah. Oh, and also just so mind boggling that the great voice teachers from 400 years ago could get amazing results, get people to make these amazing sounds.
Without any understanding.
Yeah,
physiology. I mean, you know, it was trial and error, right? And he did guesswork. And, you know, that you read these, you know, These, um, older pedagogy texts. And there's all this like bizarre imagery, you know, what did that even mean? But whatever they were doing was like effective.
It was very effective. And, and like, you can, you can tell they were onto something. Right. No. Um, so now there's a lot less guesswork, but there's still guesswork in the field of, you know, Teaching voice educated guesswork
that makes it feel kind of exciting though that you're like learning like constantly able to improve as science improves as study
improves.
Yeah, people's bodies differ, you know, one individual. Different differs from the next. So, you know, what works best for, you know, like a breathing strategy that works best for one person might not work as well for the next one. So it's not like, okay, we've got to just apply this 1 breathing strategy blanketly to everyone.
Right that and that's pretty neat too, that you realize like, okay, each person is their own little puzzle. And, you know, we have to figure out what works best for that 1 person. And that is what makes it so, you know, I'm never bored. It's what makes it so interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's get into some of these techniques.
Um. And I'm excited because I haven't heard of some of these. Um, so ones we've talked about specifically, um, let's start with, is it Estill? Estill. Estill. Okay. Let's start with that. I had never heard of this before. Um, Where did you hear about this? Learn about it? I mean, obviously we can't do a super deep dive here in the time we have, but what are some of the basics of it and kind of where you might use it in practice?
Or if someone's listening, what's something that they could maybe take into their own practice? You know, just that I'll
try to do is yeah. And yeah, I'll do a brief overview and then, um, then you can like redirect me. Um, so Joe Estill was the creator of this system. She was a, an opera singer, um, who toured in Europe and then, um, came back to the States and started teaching voice at the university level.
And. She felt during her performing career that she never knew what she was doing back, I guess, probably in the mid fifties. I mean, and I've like seen interviews of her saying that like, wow, I never knew what I was doing. And she was singing at, you know, a highly professional level. Um, and, and she would say, she said like, every time I would go out on stage, I would pray to God because like, I mean, it's 1 thing to pray like, that's fine, but she was, she felt like she was praying because she had no other way of approaching her singing.
Like,
I don't
know what's happening here. I'm just. You know, kind of doing what my teachers kind of told me I'm guessing. Um, and so she kind of, I think, took it upon herself to really, like, understand. The physiology, the anatomy and physiology of singing and, you know, make it so that people didn't have to guess so much.
And so, um, she and she had access at her schools to, like, Acousticians and scientists, um, so her, her, like method, she has 13 portions of the vocal tract, um, which she calls figures. So, you know, like lips, tongue, jaw. The larynx, which is where your vocal folds are housed, et cetera, et cetera. And she created little exercises for each one of these points within the vocal tract for you to do.
So you're isolating that element and seeing its effect on the sound that you're making. Um, and. One aspect of Estill, you can get certified in Estill training. Um, one aspect of it is that it is not, it has no stylistic bias. So, um, you don't, you know, that as an Estill student or teacher, you're not trying to, okay, everybody needs to make this, you know, pop like sound or everybody needs to make this.
operatic sort of sound. Um, so there are options, um, actually for like six different sort of vocal qualities and like a little recipe card. So like, okay, if you're trying to make an operatic sound, the figures are going to be, you're probably not going to want spread lips to make an operatic sound most of the time.
Um, and your larynx is probably going to want to be kind of low. And, um, anyway, a recipe card with 13 elements, because there are these 13 parts of the vocal apparatus. Um, but like an easy example would like, we could take lips, um, and there are like three options for the lips. Spread, neutral, and rounded or protruded.
And then like the figure is like, okay, just say or sing like an e vowel with those three conditions. Do it spread. Eee. Do it neutral. Eee. Do it protruded. Eee. And then you hear the difference. Um, and then you do it on every vowel and then you do it kind of on every pitch point and see what effect you get.
Um, so, uh, I've, I have found Estelle to be, um, very helpful with, um, my contemporary singers, um, people who are trying to sing musical theater or pop rock. Um, And I found it, uh, I mean, this is a, it's a national, you know, actually an international, um, certification program and teaching program. There's a teacher that I am taking certification classes with right now, Tom Burke.
He's in Estill. Mentor, um, and I had found him. I don't I don't know that it was through the National Association of teachers of singing, but I think I found some videos of his online that resonated with me. And so I took some other classes with him, uh, starting about a year ago and then, um, decided I would really like to.
Add the Estill element. Um, so that's how I got in, kind of got familiarized with the, um, the training program. So. Um, yeah,
wow, that's so interesting. It's my brain is thinking, um, I know someone who has a PhD in IPA, which is, um, international phonetics and then help me out on the a alphabet. Thank you. Uh, and it's a, it's a, it's a specialization that also that it gets very detailed about, um, mouth position specifically for pronunciation.
Um, they have. That this alphabet, which is, um, supposed to take into account every sound the human is capable of making with their mouth slash, you know, voice, somehow vocal, everything related to speaking. Um, so it almost sounds like this is, uh, related to some of those, um, I mean, obviously it's, it's more of a technique for holding a tone rather than.
I don't know. I'm just, I'm just making that connection because the, the things like the very specific lip positions, the very specific, um, tongue positions, um, like there are certain parts in the IPA where you have to use the front of your tongue versus the back of your tongue. Um, it's kind of reminding me of that.
Do you see any connection there? There's, it's,
um, yes, there's really interesting, um, uh, element to the, um, consonant production of consonants, um, in Estill, which is that voiced consonants, um, are going to make your voice lean towards making a certain kind of sound, and I'll explain that, and then voiceless consonants are going to make your voice lean towards making another sort of sound.
So, a voiced consonant is one that has vocal fold vibration. You can tell whether it has vocal fold vibration by putting your hand on your, fingers on your larynx and pronouncing the consonant, and if you feel vibration under your fingers, then it has vocal fold vibration. So, a sound like sss. Doesn't have any, but does have vibration.
So, um, voiced consonants are great for if you're trying to make a belty rock sound or musical theater sound, because, um, in that sort of sound, the vocal folds are closed for longer in their vibratory cycle than they are open. Um, So they're flapping against each other, but when you make a clear sound, like, yeah, you, within that cycle, the vocal folds are like close, open, close, open, close, open.
So voiced consonants set up that kind of sound really well. And then the opposite is also true. Like if you're trying to do something like that, and you have a word that has. a ss or a ff on it, your vocal folds open, and then your body's like,
um,
yeah, I'm not so sure I want to do this nice closed position.
Thank you very much. I would rather make a sweeter, breathier sound. So voiceless consonants. I have found certainly in my own singing with classical, especially when I'm singing up high, the voiceless consonants are much nicer because when you're making a pretty, you know, sort of sound, the vocal folds are open more than they are closed.
So the cycle is more like close, open, close, open, close, open. And so. A consonant that does not have vocal fold vibration sets you up nicer for that sort of vibratory pattern. And so sometimes when I'm singing up high, I'm like, why does this word stink? Well, because I have to say an um, which is a voiced consonant, and long, so my mouth is closed.
And so, hey, maybe instead I'll say a b. Which is also made with the lips the way that the M is, but it's a lot shorter.
Yeah.
Or maybe I'll even ditch that and I'll go, which is. Like a book, but with no vocal fold vibration, let's see. What about this word stinks? I can make it easier for myself. Um, and, uh, yeah, so Estelle, that that's, um, that's a major feature of Estelle that, um, has really helped me because, you know, sometimes it is not.
Like really your fault. If you're having trouble with something, it's the word that you have to say in that moment.
Yes, I'm adjusting. We're both sopranos, right? And so we do this all the time. I get away with more because choir you can kind of. Let other people take care of consents, but
yes, I mean, I finally got to the point with the Soprano with my Soprano students to say, like, you're way the heck up there.
Yeah, just let the other parts. They're all saying the same word.
Yeah.
Let them cover it.
Yep. Yep. I do that all the time. . Yeah. But as a soloist, you can't do that. You,
you have to at least try. Yeah. You have to say, you know, as much of the word as you can. Um, but, but Tom Burke, the Estell trainer, does talk about auditory closure, which is something that we do as humans, that when you hear.
A word that someone is singing or speaking, and they haven't pronounced it fully, you're going to translate that word into the closest word in your language.
Yeah. Um,
so, so, you know, I think that that concept gave me a lot of license to just be like, yeah. You know, I mean, I just, I don't want myself to be fully like inaccurate and for people not to understand me when I'm singing anything.
And I don't want my students to be that way either. But I think as choral singers, we can often get the opposite. We can get in that other, yeah. You know, because sometimes your director will say, well, I didn't understand that. I need more of this consonant. And you, you get into this mode of like, I have got to pronounce everything like.
Yeah, over the top accurately, and that's only serving to make it so much harder for you to make a lovely sound or to make any sort of sound, a free sound, whether it's a lovely one or a really intense, you know, screamy one, you know, so just giving yourself permission, like to make some adjustments is, you know, Oh my gosh.
So freeing. Yes. Also, if you're repeating text. Then, you know, people have heard you say that word already, so, you know, like, make sure the pronunciation is really beautiful and accurate when you're singing it down lower where it's not like a problem and then be a lot less intense about it when it's a higher high.
📍 📍 Andrea is a phenomenal 📍 performer. I've included the link to videos of her performances in the episode description. Also her teaching studio is incredible. Her students win awards, Esau additions, placing competitions, and are incredibly loyal. We're talking about Estelle and complimentary vowels today, but she also has advanced studies in audiology, speech, language, pathology, body mapping, Bonnie alignment, and more. She really dives in and learns everything she can about the voice then implements that not only in her teaching, but her own performance as well. She sent me some extra resources.
So if you are interested in learning about NATS as still, or other things we discussed in this episode, I've included them in the episode description. And of course, I'll be sending a newsletter email with a deep dive into the topic you can sign up@zeitgeistacademy.com slash radio. If you do sign up, you'll also have access to all my newsletter archives as well. 📍 Now let's get back to our conversation.
📍 I also wanted to. To ask you about another technique, and I'm not actually sure then what is the name of it? Um, is it the Bozeman technique or like, what do you is it an actual official name for that?
I, it's kind of within Ken Bozeman's, um. Compliment of, or battery of, um, techniques, um, in his teaching philosophy.
Um, and he calls them complimentary vowels. Complimentary vowels. Now,
can, can you give us a brief, like, who is Ken Bozeman?
Ken Bozeman is, um, another member of the National Association of Teachers of Singing. And, um, he's a professor emeritus. Um, I do not remember, uh, where he. Teaches, uh, are taught, um, in the Midwest, um, but had has over 40 years of teaching experience at the college level.
Um, and he wrote a book called practical vocal acoustics, um, which is, has been so transformative for me in my classical singing. Um, and he, so the complimentary vowels are kind of one part of his, um, kind of full package of his teaching approach. Um, but this came about when, um, I think he saw some research, um, by another singer, Ian Howell, um, about.
Basically the acoustic signature of a vowel or of vowels.
And I guess. Can you, and again, just to break, make sure everyone is on the same page. What is an acoustic signature?
So like if you sang a vowel into a little program that would show you its wave form, um, you could see, you could see a lot of different things, but if you, you know, if you've got a computer program that will filter it for.
Peaks in the sound, um, or overtones. Overtones are upper pitches, which are present in a lower pitch. So the pitch of your singing contains a whole bunch of pitches above it. And, um, vowels are created by emphasizing certain ones of these overtones. Um, and that's how we can hear a difference between an E and an OO.
For instance. And so Dr. Howell was noticing that it seemed like, huh? Each vowel seems to be not really like a primary color, but more of a, a mixed color, a mixture of two vowel sounds because the, because of which, um, overtones are emphasized. So Professor Bozeman saw that research and. started thinking, well, how would that apply to how we might approach singing these vowels?
So you look at the, the wave form of the vowel and you see, oh, it seems like I'll just stay with E. Seems like E is a combination in terms of which, um, overtones are accented, a combination of E and OO. And so his approach is You've got to think of the two vowels at once. Sure. So you think of E between your TMJs, your temporomandibular joints, which is the joint that connects your jaw to your skull.
And that, that area, like if you put your fingers on that joint and imagine a straight line going through that, through, through connecting your fingers, that's the back of your throat. Your throat doesn't go any farther back than that into your head. So that's also like an important thing to remember. But you think E between those joints in the throat, and then you think, ooh, on the front of the tongue.
Um, Because the tongue has like a hump and the high point of the hump changes based on what vowel you're saying. Um, so for E, the high point of the tongue is close to the front of the mouth. So you think E behind the hump of the tongue, and you think OO on the front of the tongue. Um, and this has been, as I said, like, like just truly transformative for me as a singer.
I think what it does, um, I'm not sure that he actually has come out and said this, but I think what it does is changes the shape of your tongue very slightly, um, and then also like improves the, basically the acoustics of the vowel that you're singing. So then the effect for me is just so much more freedom, um, in my singing.
Um, and other teachers have talked a lot about, I think in, in vocal pedagogy, the idea that you want, it's more important to have space in the back than space in the front of the mouth. Um, and the, you know, That's a generalization. There's times when you really have to open your mouth, but, um, but that idea that there needs to be more space in the back of the throat, because that is where, um, resonance that's where we like, that's where ideally we create our resonance.
Um, so, you know, he's not the only one who thinks that, but that idea of the two vowels has really made my singing much easier. He says that If when you start doing this, you might feel a shift in sensation where, um, before you, the vowel might feel kind of like mouthy or in your mouth. And when you're doing this idea, um, you might feel the resonance somewhere else moving somewhere else.
Like, maybe you might feel sympathetic vibrations kind of underneath your nasal passages kind of. In your hard palate or above your hard palate, the hard palate is the roof of the mouth in the front. Um, and I, maybe I could give you an example, like, on an e vowel of, like, what, if I'm not thinking about that complementary vowel, what that sounds like, and then what it sounds like when I am, um, just as a, for instance.
Sure, if you're willing. Yeah, and I think that this, um, this technique, so far, anyway, has, has worked really, really well with classical. Sort of tones when you're trying to produce classical tones. And, um, he, I think he believes that it can be applied to contemporary singing too, but, um, there would be certainly adjustments and I don't know where the research has gone on that.
So I don't know how, I don't know how to apply this to.
Cause the, the technique is designed to sounds like can be designed to open. Mostly, or is that just the example you were giving to open things up, which in the classical space is what you want. But if you're, if you're belting or, you know, if you're singing queen, you don't want a big open, right?
Yeah. I think it's, you know, you're looking for a clear and warm sound, right? Um, yeah. And so, yeah, so there might be a, like, yeah, there might, there might be a really big difference in how you'd apply it. Um, yeah, other styles. Um, so like here would be, if I'm just thinking E,
again. That
And then, if I'm thinking E between my TMJs and OO on the front of my tongue, Eeeeee
, there's more warmth there. And for me, it just feels easier to produce it. And I think that's been the big thing for me and my students is that it makes it easier to do it. Thanks. Easier physically, maybe not easier intellectually. Cause then you have to think like pretty much whenever you have a held vowel, you have to think what is its pair.
And then, you know, try to remember that as you're singing. So it's that, that, that is complex, but everything we do as singers is complex. So.
So that's so interesting because that that idea has been around for a while and even filtered down to me who has not taken pedagogy classes or is not in this world, but, um, if I pull out, I've been, um, I've been printing music for my upcoming season. And some of these scores I already had, so I've been pulling out my own scores and looking at my notes, and so often it's, my notes are other vowels that are not the sung vowel, and it usually is E with OO, um, a lot of E, because I'm, again, I'm a soprano, so it's a little specific to my vocal part, but the higher you go, the more challenging that E is.
And , also E's just generally can get really flat or like flat, meaning, um, meaning too wide, you know, too bright, uh, and pinched sometimes if you're not paying attention. So adding a little bit of ooh is like, like I haven't written ooh, like throughout my, a lot of my music on my notes.
So the idea obviously has been around for a while, but this sounds like a much more focused and dedicated approach. Um, Also, I've never heard it described that way of, like, the, the anatomy that you just went through. Super helpful. And I'll have to, I'll have to go back. I'm really curious now. Like, when I do adjust my vowels, that's probably close to what I'm doing.
But being more intentional with it does sound, in the music that I sing, the classical music that I sing, it does sound really helpful.
Yeah. Um, I think you're right. Like there, I had stumbled upon this idea just through trial and error. Well, you know, one little sliver of this idea through trial and error with some of my students for the a vowel Mm-Hmm.
I would say, oh, add a little bit of, uh, to that, right?
Yeah.
up. And that had worked really, really well for them. And that's again, that just through trial and error in my studio before I, yeah. Um, bozeman's work. Um, and, uh, I think the, that idea of where the vocal tract is really helpful. Um, and also that, um, he says, you're not trying to shape that complimentary vowel.
You're still trying to shape with your, your mouth, the shape of the vowel that you're intending to sing. And you're just really like imagining. The, that complimentary vowel. And, you know, I hate the word imagine because, because as a, as a student of voice, I, I really didn't like it when my, you know, teachers would tell me to imagine something because I didn't, I don't think I knew enough as an, a younger student about like the anatomy and physiology to like, I needed somebody to say, Hey, move your ribs in this, in this certain way, or put your tongue here.
I needed someone. More literal, um, but imagery really can work. Um, and that's, that's something that over time as a teacher, I have realized I still am much more literal, but there are certain things now that I will use images for, um, because I have found like, okay, that does actually work. So imagining that second.
Riding on the front of the tongue, um, which
I've got to say is still fairly specific. Like, like I've, I've been told, imagine you're throwing a dart at a wall. Imagine you're bowling. Imagine you're tossing your tone. What does that mean?
Yeah. And that can be really frustrating. I think most singers. Like, you know, I, I need something a little bit more, a little bit more guided than that.
Yeah. So let's talk really quick. Cause you mentioned, um, that it, that the complimentary vowels in other genres that are non classical can be, um, maybe not as applied. Um, are there specific genres that you would call out where something like that would work? Um, if someone's attempting to learn a song in that genre?
Oh, you know, for complimentary vowels where that would work.
Yeah,
definitely. Classic musical theater,
you
know, because that pretty much is a classical vocal technique. There's some differences I'd say. Yeah. But, um, that I have used it a lot with, with my students, um, who are doing classic music theater. Um, and then, you know, classical, right.
And I don't tend to use those ideas unless. The student is working on a classical or a legit musical theater piece.
Yeah. Um,
and if we're doing, um, belting rock pop, um, then we're probably going for other kinds of sounds where we would be focused on other things. Like maybe, you know, for instance, if you're singing popular from wicked, um, We might be focused instead on keeping an incredibly small jaw position and a really high forward tongue, regardless of the vowel.
Right. So then it's not specific to which particular vowel. It's like, okay, if you're trying to make a sound that is like this, then you need to have a really close job and a high tongue and a pretty high larynx. Um, Other elements, and that's, I guess, where the Estill comes in, because, um, the Estill training would have, like, Little exercises you could do for each one of those elements like certain positions how to make a high larynx position
For some reason my mom just popped in my head. She's always like singers are so weird. She plays French horn It's like singers are so weird. I'm like, yeah, I don't know brass players dump spit all over the floor. You're weird, too but
So when you're looking at your Studio of who knows how many students, um, you, how would you, you know, you have all this knowledge. These two are probably the only two we're going to have a chance to talk about today. Obviously, I'm sure you have many more when you, how do you decide to use these in a student?
Do you say, okay, we're going to use an Estill technique for this. Um, or do you say, okay, we're going to like across, I'm going to teach everybody this thing across my whole studio. Like, where do you decide how to insert? All of this knowledge that you have, um, across your studio, especially when you're learning something new and you're probably really excited about it and looking to use it.
Um, do you do that in, like you mentioned, a group class or, or is it like targeted for a specific point in a piece with a student? How would you use this?
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, absolutely. It is tailored to the individual. So, um, You know, it's based on the piece that they're working on and the, I don't want to say problems that arise the things that they want to change.
They want to do differently. Um, so it, it works best when they can self identify like,. Actually, I had a, a student, uh, yesterday who, um, I asked him after he sang the piece through. So any, you know, there were a few things I had identified that I think he also identified, like, oh, we really have to address this, um, and then I asked him anything else that, like, You're still kind of wondering about or wanna do differently.
And he said, ah, I don't like the way that last word sounds. And I was like, oh, okay. Let's do something with that. And then we did a combination of, um, uh, thinking about the complimentary vowel and, um, breathing strategy there. So, and then after he did those two things. He was happy with the sound at the end.
So it's really, you know, I, I guess also for me, it's part, part of my job is to train my students to be able to listen to themselves with an ear like, okay, well, I was happy with this, this, this, and this. But I still don't really know what I'm doing right here on this word. Like, I don't know why this word doesn't work as well as this word over here.
So, you know, for them to be able to say that to me, and then we work on a solution for that particular word or phrase or passage. And, you know, it could, it could be like, how we address it could be under any number of categories. It could be a pronunciation addiction thing. It could be an airflow thing. It could be that we need to address their body alignment at that moment.
It could be a matter of. Increasing some of their full body physical energy. Um, at that moment, um, so I think singing is juggling so many balls in here once. Um, and I will often say to students, like. All right. Well, it seems like you've got, you know, you've got the airflow element going really well. And you've actually have also got the resonance that you're looking for.
Meaning like, you are making a very clear, small Kristen Chenoweth sort of sound. But hey,
man, no one is as recognizable as her.
But hey, I think there's a couple of like, Um, letters in this word that we could work on here and let's add that layer now.
Yeah. And so
the more layers you can put onto it, the more like success you're going to have overall.
Um, but it is, it's a very complex cognitive task to be able to say, Yeah. You do have to think about many things at once.
This, that comment leads so perfectly into my next question here, which is, this has all gotten very heady. Um, you have a series of videos, I'll put the links in the description of, um, how to get the voice, the, the most out of your voice lessons.
And one of the concepts is positive play. So can we like. Like step back from the minute into maybe, maybe not the 10, 000 foot level, but maybe like the 5, 000 foot level and talk about this. Cause I love this from a student perspective. Um, what, what is positive play, um, in your video? And then also do you take that approach as well with students when you're deciding what to do with each student?
Um, I think there's a lot of different ways that I could answer that. I think it is so important to look at your work positively. Um, and that is something that that is a lesson that I am really working on learning for myself. But don't cry. Um, And so I, I feel like I have so much compassion for my students because I've been there. Um, I, I have been self critical, um, for, uh, for a very large portion of my life.
And, um, I'm, I'm, I think much less so. Um, but I just remember, you know, when I was in college and the years after really working to like chase this ideal, yeah. What I was looking for in my, in my own sound and my work and never being satisfied because I was always chasing that ideal, um, which as a musician, you do have to have that perfect ideal in your mind.
So it's, I think, I think it's a. A tricky dance. Yeah. Um, because you don't want to just be like, Oh, well, whatever I do is fine. And I should just congratulate myself no matter what. But then if you're, if you only measure yourself against this ideal. You will never, ever be satisfied. And actually it will make it much harder for you to learn and improve because we know this from like educational research that when we are trying to learn something, we really should go back and measure our personal progress.
Like,
yeah,
here's where I am now. Here's where I was a year ago. Whoa, I can do a lot more things now, or even, you know, with my individuals, you know, in my individual lessons, like, um, when I, you know, ask somebody if we're working on a phrase, um, and they, I give the, I give them an adjustment and they do it.
I'm going to ask them, well, was that better in your mind than the one that you did the first one you did? Yes. Okay, good. Then we're going in the right direction. Is it where you want it to be fully yet? Sometimes the answer is yet. Yes. Sometimes the answer is no. And, you know, then we talk about, well, what other layer we need to add to this to get it to be fully where you want it to be, but really remembering, like, we need to notice the things that we're already doing well.
And base our work off of that, rather than pointing out to ourselves all of the things that we hated about that, everything that went wrong. Um, and I guess the, the selling point really is for both for me and for my students that it doesn't work. It doesn't actually work to focus on the things that went wrong.
Like now we know that it doesn't help you. You don't get better by doing that. So, you know, and I mean, that's, it's still a hard lesson to learn, but I think it really, it helps to know that this is not an effective learning strategy. So, I may as well try to abandon that.
Yeah, I, this is a weird, again, my head just connected, weird connection, but way back when I was in driver's ed, I remember them teaching like where your focus is, is where your car goes.
So focus on the road, focus on the, don't focus on the ditch cause you'll end up in the ditch. Right.
A
little more dramatic, but yeah.
I don't know if I answered that question fully, but yeah,
I know. I think that's. That's super, super important. I also, um, I think, I think it's part of being a musician because you, when you, you know what, what it can be, especially with all the recordings that are out there of people doing Christian Chenoweth, like, you know what it can be.
No one can be that with like her, but also no one can be her. And so where are you in this and finding what works for you and bringing that in? I really love that.
I'm really asking my students. What do you want it to sound like?
Yes. You know,
um, cause then they own that
journey. I love that.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I could, obviously we could talk for a long time about vocal techniques. I want to ask you one more question. . So I have this thing called a zeitgeist moment where you are making music somehow, or listening, or whatever, involved with music somehow. And suddenly, like that moment where it just clicks and you just feel part of something bigger than yourself. I think as a lot of musicians, we all strive for that moment.
Um, so I'll ask you what was a, either a recent or a memorable Zeitgeist moment for you, and while you're thinking of that, I'll share one, um, because we've been talking about vowels so much. This was so interesting. I learned so much, and, uh, I had been thinking, I had been kind of falling back, um, on concepts of IPA for, um, a lot of this, just, just thinking, being, trying to be more intentional with my, the shape of my mouth.
And I don't, I don't think IPA is the exact right tool, but it's the one I had the most, um, familiarity with. And so I had a zeitgeist moment over the summer. This acapella group I'm in did a couple of performances, including, um, we, we did Eric Whitaker's sleep. And for those who don't know, Eric Whitaker has these crunchy chords that are just, I mean, the way that the music swells and resolves is just fascinating.
And I've sung this piece many, many times, but over the summer. This group just clicked, um, at both of our performances. And I was thinking about this in terms of vowels, because I think that's what, like, we were so perfectly unified in our, in our vowels specifically. Um, through the whole piece, this was like my, my little moment was like, you know, three or four minutes long.
I've never sung it this well, like with this group this well, and there was just something that was so special. And I really felt like we, like, it wasn't me singing the piece. It was. An entity that was the entire group, one single entity creating the sound that filled the hall as one single, um, stream of sound.
And it was, it was truly incredible. And it, it, Like that is why I perform. That is why I, I sing with others is hitting that moment where everything just aligns so perfectly and, and the whole ensemble of probably 20 to 25 people, just clicked into one single unified sound. It was really special. So that's one I wanted to share with you.
I would be curious if you have had a Zeitgeist moment either recently or a particularly memorable one for you.
I love that story so much, um, because we were, we were talking about before we started the, um, recording about just how singular it is an experience to sing with other people. Um, I, I think it's really, I don't know, one of the most spiritual experiences Whether you have a, you know, a faith in a higher being or not, just spiritual experiences that you can have as a human.
And so I certainly have had moments like that in performances in choral music, particularly because you just feel like you're part of something larger than yourself. Um, I'll give you an answer that I'm. is maybe a little, I don't know if it's a little less usual because it's not one of me, um, performing or singing.
Um, but, um, I've just been just so filled with gratitude, um, in the past year or so. Um, and I decided at, uh, my, my spring studio recital to, um, Kind of talk a little bit about I always speak, but it's usually just kind of logistics and, you know, welcoming and, um, but I, I wanted to share something more personal about music, um, about me, um, and my relationship to music and, um, I'm just so, so like proud of the work that my students are, are doing and.
This really lovely feeling of love that of course we have at the studio recitals because, you know, everyone has worked so hard and, um, either they're giving you their, their most polished version of their performance that they possibly can. So it's, of course, a time where you feel great period. Um, but I've just felt recently just this, like I'm riding this wave or there, there's this well of so many beautiful people in my past, my, you know, previous students, um, current students.
I've been doing this long enough so that I have a lot of studio alumni who are just really wonderful people. Um, and so to like, just feel that I am not, you know, I'm teaching these people, but I'm riding this wave of all of these beautiful minds and spirits and, um, everybody's working towards something really positive.
Um, I guess I've, I've become very grateful about that. And, um, every day that I do my job, I just feel like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe. I can't believe. That I get to like, be a part of so many people's lives who are, you know, sincere, hardworking, lovely people who like want to
make music. I love it.
I felt, I felt that like I was riding that wave a lot at the studio recital, but I, I feel like I, I feel that every day, um, maybe in slightly smaller ways, but, um, I.
I do feel it every day. Oh, that's beautiful. Well, Andrea, thank you so much for being on my podcast. Oh, thanks so much for having me. What a great conversation
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